Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-04-07T16:32:05+02:00

Interesting mod, although shouldn't the tech building only allow buildings attached to it / within a certain area the advantage? makes more sense from a game-play and lore perspective.
Haven't had the time to try the mod out though so maybe it works great.

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 07 Apr 2013, 16:32

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T15:39:20+02:00

@Uber,

I've played a lot of games over the years, generally if something is central to game-play that annoys you, it builds over time. The results are predictable, I stop playing, or play less. I'm not being dramatic or hysterical, at least I don't intend to be.

Using the approach you mentioned, I find that there's a saturation point where engies can't fit at the factory and start to wander aimlessly about, circling the factory. To remedy this, I find I have to select the engies and select an outter engie that's in the direction that the aimless engie is traveling in. This is the horrible micro I was referring to.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

The thread is about engies and build capacity, don't know why you're going off on a tangent about ASFs and tanks. I think we can save that for another thread.

I have a good PC, but not everyone does and not everyone can pick one up for 500 units of currency (decent PCs are much more expensive in Poland for instance). I am aware that t1 bombers can kill engies. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

uberge3k wrote:
The fact is that you can buy a PC for around $500 that will run 6x6 games flawlessly until the very late game, where everyone invariably slows due to the engine and the thousands of non-engineering units that are about.

And the hundreds/low thousands of engies too (depending on number of players). I think the engies assisting facs are a waste, I'm not talking about the other units.

Look I'm a noob and I don't want to get into a flaming session, you know more about the game than me by miles, that's a given. I was just putting across my point of view, based on my experience of the game so far. Whether there's any merit in my pov or not, is another question altogether

Statistics: Posted by Kof — 22 Feb 2013, 15:39

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T15:05:21+02:00

(you can still spam engy like there is no tomorrow with the mod too if you are really into it)

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 22 Feb 2013, 15:05

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T14:50:17+02:00

maybe the first time in my life i agree with UBER

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 22 Feb 2013, 14:50

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T14:39:58+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
the simple fact that FA's engine leaks and will inevitably slow as games grow larger.

Don't know from where you get that. Don't start any new false rumors, there is too many already.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 22 Feb 2013, 14:39

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T14:35:38+02:00

Kof wrote:
I find the whole engie assist concept in FA mental, especially when combined with the poor pathfinding. Hordes of engies bumping into each other and doing laps. Horrible micro to correct. Fun? f*** no. IMO. But you have to do it, otherwise you're going to lose, because your opponents are doing it. It's the main thing that annoys me about the game and I grow more exasperated with it as time goes by. I can foresee a point where it would put me off playing, or playing as much as I would otherwise.

I think that that would make you the very first person in FA's history to have quit playing because of having to manage engineers. I can understand that you personally dislike this aspect of gameplay, but is it really enough to make you leave the game?

I'll say it again: by this logic, we can and should remove any other aspect of the game that is arbitrarily deemed "horrible micro". Just because a LAB or an ASF shoots does not mean that it is somehow "Approved Micro", while non-shooting engineer micro is "Horrible Awful Micro That Makes Me Give Up The Game Entirely" based on arbitrary and ultimately illogical criteria.

Kof wrote:
Having 300 - 400 engies clustered around facs is also going to have performance consequences.

You could also say that having 300-400 tanks running around shooting is going to have performance consequences, but no one is complaining about that.

Sandbox it. Yes, engineers will impact performance. No, they will not impact it in any noticeable way compared to air swarms, hundreds of tanks shooting, or even the simple fact that FA's engine leaks and will inevitably slow as games grow larger.

The fact is that you can buy a PC for around $500 that will run 6x6 games flawlessly until the very late game, where everyone invariably slows due to the engine and the thousands of non-engineering units that are about.

Finally, if someone has 300-400 engineers clustered around factories, you can do what I do: send a few T1 bombers at them.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 22 Feb 2013, 14:35

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T14:20:14+02:00

I have read the whole thread and realise that this is a contentious issue.

I find the whole engie assist concept in FA mental, especially when combined with the poor pathfinding. Hordes of engies bumping into each other and doing laps. Horrible micro to correct. Fun? f*** no. IMO. But you have to do it, otherwise you're going to lose, because your opponents are doing it. It's the main thing that annoys me about the game and I grow more exasperated with it as time goes by. I can foresee a point where it would put me off playing, or playing as much as I would otherwise.

Having 300 - 400 engies clustered around facs is also going to have performance consequences.

So, I'm all for allowing players to opt out of using this approach and have an alternative form of build capacity (while retaining the ability to engie cluster if players wish).

Commendations to Rienzilla and Zock for their work on this initiative. I think this is an important issue.

I'll try the mod and give more informed feedback on it.

Thanks again guys and I hope you are successful in your ambitious endeavour.

Statistics: Posted by Kof — 22 Feb 2013, 14:20

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-22T14:06:14+02:00

Nobody commenting here seems to really understand what the mod exactly does, even if they played it once or twice (it's not enough to get a "gameplay feeling").

The mod is all about improving the gameplay, adding more strategies without removing anything that exists. Basically, it allows t2 and t3 gameplay to be more like t1 gameplay, allowing big armies of t2 and t3 units, and not just huge ass t1 armies with a few pew pew t2 and t3 here and there until an Experimental arrives. In Normal FA, you are stuck with your 10 t1 factories for the rest of the game until you decide it's time to reclaim them, because it's not efficient to upgrade them. How is it not broken???

If the mod does something, it's increasing the flexibility, not lessening it. You can still make a concentrated base and defend it with defenses or go more about spread production, all about offense and not defense. It makes the game more like Total Annihilation. You can also still build a lot of t1 engies, they are still super useful, you can also use them to boost production, it still works and it is still as flexible as you want it to be because nobody forces you not to build engineers. Except that now, you can also build higher tier ones more efficiently.

It increases the scale of the game because it allows huge t2 and t3 fights, it makes it much more epic and macro orientated. It also fixes the huge problem of overcharging t2 units with your ACU because when you have 3 times the usual normal of t2 or t3 units, your ACU cannot overcharge everything and fight in everyplace (he still might get more vet from higher tier units though, again, more epic), but it will make a big difference where he is because he can repel big t2 attacks better than anything at tier 2. I can see lot of strategies here.

Before judging the mod, people should actually play it several times or at least watch a few replays of someone who knows how to play it to see how the gameplay is changed, and if what they see is more like Starcraft of other bullshit like this.

Nice sales pitch.

What you hope to achieve and what these experiments are producing aren't the same thing.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 22 Feb 2013, 14:06

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T23:30:06+02:00

The problem with this mod is the same as with djstojkov's "3599". It's not about 3599 moslty.

Engie mod is not about engies, but more about some tech buildings.

I've seen like 30% Zock's replay and noted one thing: this mod doen't bring T2 to game as it's supposed to do as T2 still sucks vs T3. So, this doesn't work as good as supposed to, and there is no point for drastic gameplay changes at all. I think, the only real cause of such a hot discussion is that a famous popular player is investing his time to advertise it.

The only way to bring T2 to game is to buff T2 units (and probably fac's buildrates) and to make T3 less reachable (and buff T3 facs buildrates). This thing was already done once with T3 facs and once with T3 mexes to make map outside the base more improtant. This will make game's time longer but I don't really see another way with tech bulding or without.

Also FA gameplay is already a bit volatile because of assassination being the goal of the play. You kill a single unit and win. That's cool. But I think it's cool as it is, and I don't like the idea of bringing more of such units into game.
I agree with Lu_Xun in that losing such thing on T3 stage is certain gg, and if losing it on T2 stage is not gg (is it or not?) this is because of solely T2 not being good enough to be much of advantage.
This will completely swith the focus of gamepley to control/multitasking skills from strategy skills and make game more stupidclickerstrarcraftcontrollerselectallunist3timesaminutemultitasker welcome. And the game is already has such tendentions.

SupCom spirit is not a joke too because this is the only reason we don't play, say, Starcraft instead. Break it and community will disappear in a month. People play FA because they like flux economy, they want to build BIG things, they like strategic view and radar, and arties. They won't be happy with something you can mercy of TML or T2 bomb ... not being the comm.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 19 Feb 2013, 23:30

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T23:03:54+02:00

I played that mod sometimes and i have to say that is awesome, you can spam t2 and t3 units like you do with t1 if you have the resources, its like mega epic battles with a big scale of t2 and t3 armys and you dont need so hard effort as you need now for make that armys , I mean micro manage effort.

In another way you can use the adjacency bonus of mexes and pgen, thats a thing that with the actual engie spam is useless, why should you build a factory next to a pgen wth the actual balance?

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 19 Feb 2013, 23:03

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T22:19:14+02:00

The SupCom Ethos is indeed that low-tech units do not become obsolete late-game, however in this case it is the late-game units which never have a use in the first place! Once T3, generally you produce T3 combat units, and gently phase out the lower-tiers as our economy strengthens. That is not the case here! Here, as economy strengths, you simply spam EVEN MORE T1!!! This is wrong. I don't GAF about 'Lore' but this situation doesn't fit with general SupCom gameplay, with logic, with... Well, anything! I have yet to see an argument against improvements to late-game Engineer efficiency that is not full of holes, bearing in mind that I would not touch T1 Engineers. At all.

This is why i would make higher Tech Engies more efficient than they are now at the expense of movement. T1 Engineers are still useful for expansion, for firebases, and for reclaiming, but building >1 Higher tech Engineer also has a use!

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2013, 22:19

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T02:12:28+02:00

ShadowKnight wrote:
what about the T1/T2/T3 Engineer balance, the fact that higher tech Engineers are practically pointless beyond one or two?

I don't see why that's a problem. Is the complaint from a lore perspective? I don't think many of us care too much about lore.

t2 and t3 engineers are not pointless. Everyone builds one or two of them at least, but doesn't swarm them. I don't see what's fundamentally wrong with that. In fact, it sits very well with the general supcom ethos of lower tier units not becoming obsolete when higher tiers become available. Plus it allows dynamic and flexible gameplay.

Is it unintuitive for new players? Perhaps, but so is pretty much everything else in supcom. It's one of the simpler lessons to learn too. "Hey, don't build heaps of t2/t3 engineers because it's more efficient to assist them with t1. And look, you've already got all those t1 engineers that you built earlier, yay!". Easier than learning how to eco.

Firmly in the "aint broke, don't fix" basket here. Mainly because it's such a sweeping change that it will inevitably break a whole lot of other stuff. Look how many units are being changed! And every change flows on to something else.

Plus, the research building.

Statistics: Posted by stalewee — 19 Feb 2013, 02:12

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T01:48:50+02:00

Can I just ask Uber and the others who take the 'Not broke, don't fix' option a question? I agree with your feelings about the Factory changes, but what about the T1/T2/T3 Engineer balance, the fact that higher tech Engineers are practically pointless beyond one or two? Would you support changes which make those higher tech Engineers more viable.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2013, 01:48

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-19T01:29:36+02:00

I didn't read the rest of thread because I'm drunk and lazy. Mostly both of those.

The discussion is purely academic - adding new units violates the second law of balance - no new units.

I'm all for new units, all for people tinkering with balance but until Zep states explicitly otherwise, adding new units for balance is purely an academic exercise.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 19 Feb 2013, 01:29

Re: Thoughts on the engie mod, the tech buildings

2013-02-18T22:35:13+02:00

before this nonsense goes further, remember that factories tend to leave this things called wrecks, that...wait for it.... can be reclaimed to get your mass back
*crowd goes wild*
but wait! there's more!
6 t1 bombers can kill a fac's entire engie regiment, cost efficiently i might add
and just because people aren't intelligent enough to abuse that doesn't mean that we should neglect it's importance

had a nice laugh with the assisting facs getting BP idea ^^ ty

Statistics: Posted by eXivo — 18 Feb 2013, 22:35