Forged Alliance Forever Forged Alliance Forever Forums 2013-08-29T00:57:29+02:00 /feed.php?f=2&t=3015 2013-08-29T00:57:29+02:00 2013-08-29T00:57:29+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=52033#p52033 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]> Statistics: Posted by terrybougard — 29 Aug 2013, 00:57


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2013-08-09T19:51:37+02:00 2013-08-09T19:51:37+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50487#p50487 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
Gyle wrote:
Mycen wrote:I feel like a lot of these complaints we're seeing now (as is to be expected, I suppose) are by people who did not follow the creation of the mod, and so do not understand it.



TY for saving me a post... 8-)

But he didn't, though, did he... :lol:

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 09 Aug 2013, 19:51


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2013-08-09T18:45:48+02:00 2013-08-09T18:45:48+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50482#p50482 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
Mycen wrote:
I feel like a lot of these complaints we're seeing now (as is to be expected, I suppose) are by people who did not follow the creation of the mod, and so do not understand it.



TY for saving me a post... 8-)

Statistics: Posted by Gyle — 09 Aug 2013, 18:45


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2013-08-09T17:30:04+02:00 2013-08-09T17:30:04+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50480#p50480 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
ttsolo wrote:
And yes, we are all playing the same game, with same balance, same speed of building, etc... but it's not an argument... If your government decides to limit speed at 10mph... speed will be the same for everybody... will you be happy with it ? not me !


He's not saying we're all playing the same game as each other, he's saying we're all playing (pretty much) the same game as before. Your analogy is not accurate. The BT of some things increased, but T1 engineers are still the most mass/effective choice for getting buildpower, so a player who spams them will still have more buildpower than another player for less cost. You'll just find they just feel/are too slow now because their pathfinding issues really show compared to factories or higher-tier engineers. Which was the whole point of the mod.

I feel like a lot of these complaints we're seeing now (as is to be expected, I suppose) are by people who did not follow the creation of the mod, and so do not understand it. Most of their concerns are pretty inaccurate, really the issue that Roundtabler brought up has, almost from the beginning, been the only real problem with engymod changing the core game mechanics too much.

RoundTabler wrote:
The ability to magically have T2 ANYWHERE on the field as soon as you have an HQ makes certain strategies on Open Palms and other maps automatic wins (you just get an HQ, then upgrade facs on both ledges and spam mmls).

I think the HQ having a range would solve the "redundant t1 facs", while only being able to build T2 support facs outside that range with engies would solve the T2 anywhere anytime game mechanic issue.


But once people have played this for a while, we will see if it stays a problem. If it does, a solution can be thought of that works well, if not, then kewl. In the games I've played it doesn't seem to cause that big a problem, and after building mass ASFs, all at -400E/s, I know I never want to go back! :D

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 09 Aug 2013, 17:30


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2013-08-09T15:49:16+02:00 2013-08-09T15:49:16+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50477#p50477 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
Voodoo wrote:
I can't see your problem. You can totaly ignore the engy mod features and play as before.
Nothing changed at the t1 stage and if your opponent is using the feature, he needs also exactly the same amount of mass and energy for building.


Tell me if I'm wrong. Zep just said that all units are a little more longer to build.
So, it's harder to react by building. Specialy if all that you got is T1 engis (T1 engis doesn't have changed at all).

And yes, we are all playing the same game, with same balance, same speed of building, etc... but it's not an argument... If your government decides to limit speed at 10mph... speed will be the same for everybody... will you be happy with it ? not me !

Statistics: Posted by ttsolo — 09 Aug 2013, 15:49


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2013-08-09T15:13:35+02:00 2013-08-09T15:13:35+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50474#p50474 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
RoundTabler wrote:
Ze_PilOt wrote:Is it a problem in the first place ?

All this is highly hypothetical, I have yet to see it being a problem in an actual game.


I've seen this problem in several of TA4Life's casts recently. He seems pretty concerned about it. The ability to magically have T2 ANYWHERE on the field as soon as you have an HQ makes certain strategies on Open Palms and other maps automatic wins (you just get an HQ, then upgrade facs on both ledges and spam mmls).

I think the HQ having a range would solve the "redundant t1 facs", while only being able to build T2 support facs outside that range with engies would solve the T2 anywhere anytime game mechanic issue.


Isn't automatic win a bit of a stretch? Like someone pointed out in the aeon thread, there were changes to the game that have allowed for some new strategies. People will come up with counters to those strategies, and the meta game develops. It takes a little time.

For your specific example, I'm no pro, I have trouble understanding how your scenario is an automatic win. Are you saying spam mml on those little side places that you take a transport to? Presumably the ones on your opponents side? Couldn't that be countered by

1.) Using an air transport ot establish bases on your own ridges before your opponent can, or
2.) having MMl target those bases as your opponent is trying to set them up, or
3.) having air superiority and shooting down transports as your opponent flies them in, or
4.) Placing 3 t2 factories right in the center and churning out t2 bots, maybe while upgrading your commander into an offensive commander, and charging the center, or
5.) Skipping t2 and getting some t3 mobile artilery to outrange those bases up those bases, or
6.) If all else fails, do the same tactic yourself.


Not saying that all of those would work, but at least 1 must work?

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 09 Aug 2013, 15:13


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2013-08-09T15:06:21+02:00 2013-08-09T15:06:21+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50473#p50473 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
But I don't see anything not counterable in what you are saying.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 09 Aug 2013, 15:06


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2013-08-09T14:55:03+02:00 2013-08-09T14:55:03+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50472#p50472 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
Ze_PilOt wrote:
Is it a problem in the first place ?

All this is highly hypothetical, I have yet to see it being a problem in an actual game.


I've seen this problem in several of TA4Life's casts recently. He seems pretty concerned about it. The ability to magically have T2 ANYWHERE on the field as soon as you have an HQ makes certain strategies on Open Palms and other maps automatic wins (you just get an HQ, then upgrade facs on both ledges and spam mmls).

I think the HQ having a range would solve the "redundant t1 facs", while only being able to build T2 support facs outside that range with engies would solve the T2 anywhere anytime game mechanic issue.

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 09 Aug 2013, 14:55


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2013-08-09T13:42:57+02:00 2013-08-09T13:42:57+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50469#p50469 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
ttsolo wrote:
I don't dislike by principle, the only thing I dislike by principle is the way the modification has been applyed.

The thing I dislike in the modification, is when you need to react to an offensive by constructing or assisting with T1 engis. It has becomed way too slow. And if in the late game it's not a problem, in the beginning, I only have T1 engis and it's too slow.
And the last thing, you can't play ranked on a mod, so we are forced to play on this version of the game if you wan't to progress in ratings.


I can't see your problem. You can totaly ignore the engy mod features and play as before.
Nothing changed at the t1 stage and if your opponent is using the feature, he needs also exactly the same amount of mass and energy for building.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 09 Aug 2013, 13:42


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2013-08-09T12:44:52+02:00 2013-08-09T12:44:52+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50468#p50468 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
The thing I dislike in the modification, is when you need to react to an offensive by constructing or assisting with T1 engis. It has becomed way too slow. And if in the late game it's not a problem, in the beginning, I only have T1 engis and it's too slow.
And the last thing, you can't play ranked on a mod, so we are forced to play on this version of the game if we wan't to progress in ratings.

Statistics: Posted by ttsolo — 09 Aug 2013, 12:44


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2013-08-09T11:38:14+02:00 2013-08-09T11:38:14+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50464#p50464 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
ttsolo wrote:
I'm totally lost since the modification of the game... T1 engi build too slowly, T2 and T3 too fast...


The build power of T1 did not changed. Was 5, still 5.

I think you hate more by principle than actual gameplay, because it doesn't change anything if you don't want to (actually, you can disable it entirely in the unit restriction menu).

And while the BP of T2 and T3 was increased, the BT of everything increased too in the same proportion, so it doesn't affect buildings, only factories assist.

Now the T2/T3 engy are cost efficient. You like it or not it's your problem, but I fail to see how it's a bad change.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 09 Aug 2013, 11:38


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2013-08-09T11:30:13+02:00 2013-08-09T11:30:13+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50463#p50463 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]> I didn't like this modification while it was in test, now that it's forced in place, I begin to hate it.
Other updates where good or bad, no problem, it didn't change too much of the game, but this change touch too much of the heart of the game.
I'm sorry that my english is not good enough to have long and "accurate" discussions about it but I needed to tell you what I think about it, even if it's useless.
I hope I'll have enough patience to be able to be able to forget how this modification has been applied and how it annoyes me...

Statistics: Posted by ttsolo — 09 Aug 2013, 11:30


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2013-08-09T09:34:22+02:00 2013-08-09T09:34:22+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50458#p50458 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]> Statistics: Posted by Golol — 09 Aug 2013, 09:34


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2013-08-09T09:27:34+02:00 2013-08-09T09:27:34+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50457#p50457 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
All this is highly hypothetical, I have yet to see it being a problem in an actual game.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 09 Aug 2013, 09:27


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2013-08-09T09:08:13+02:00 2013-08-09T09:08:13+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3015&p=50456#p50456 <![CDATA[Re: engy Redesign mod]]>
RoundTabler wrote:
In either case, this is obviously a huge difference from before. My idea;
First; Disable factories from having the NON-HQ upgrade(cheapfact)
Second, only allow that non-hq factory to be built by relative tiered engineers/acu (hardbuilt)

If you don't have that tech level in the area, you either have to pay the fullcost of the factory;ie upgrade to get a t1 factory to t2HQ, or t2hq to t3hq - OR, get the tech there - Transport some t2 engineers, or walk your acu over.

After coming up with that I started thinking it makes "practical supcom sense" (<---cmon, that's funny)
Instead of magically having the tech enabled because you upgraded some factory to a t2HQ or t3hq some 5 to 10 kilometres away (or further)
Instead, you actually have to have the tier2 blueprints on hand via t2engy or t2acu to build a t2 "non-hq(cheapfact)" factory.

This will return some of the original flow while still retaining the efficient t2, and t3 spam without engineerspam if that's the direction the player wants to take.


An interesting idea. It would certainly resolve this issue. But it would also mean the T1 spam factories become redundant. Reintroducing the issue with having to reclaim them and rebuild T2 Cheap Facs. It would defeat one of the elements of engie mod.

An alternative solution would be to introduce an enabling range for the HQ. Or perhaps give the HQ some build power advantages over the cheap fac.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 09 Aug 2013, 09:08


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