Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-02T13:30:47+02:00

Nine pages and not a single replay, so I guess it's not a problem in a real game situation. I'm closing the thread before it derail more.

Why this kind of change wasn't put in the mavor ?

- It's not mobile.
- Faction diversity.
- The immaturity of this community (you just gave me one more proof) made me stopped any development on FAF and any willing to balance it further. But yes, changes to T3 arties and Mavor were planned (one step at a time, but you made me stopped before).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 02 Dec 2012, 13:30

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-02T04:53:49+02:00

how often do you play 40² or 80²?

yes so just get off with that pointless argumentation

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 02 Dec 2012, 04:53

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-02T02:30:10+02:00

Stin wrote:
Lyr wrote:
Stin wrote:The important thing to take from this entire thread is that people are willing to ask for big changes to things based on......I dont know, poor skill level, database stats and whimsy.
I'm so glad that the people actually running the show are sensible enough to see through it. A rare case of actual common sense being applied.

I stopped taking you seriously when I saw you only have 13 games. Why argue about balance if you don't play the game?

Of course, because FAF is the ONLY way to play FA
I care because its ridiculous to say the soul ripper and scathis are OP. Even I with my measly 13 games can see that there's no problem with them. The total lack of replays kind of backs me up.

And why did you delete the PM you sent me? Was it more irrational tripe?

[EDIT] 8 pages and STILL no replays showing how OP a Scathis is. Must be a REAL big problem......

FAF is the only place where the Scathis was buffed. The rest of your post only serves to prove my point. I sent you some replays but you ignored them and continued to be rude in thread. I've come to the conclusion that you are just trolling, and will treat you accordingly, as you haven't contributed anything to this thread.

we notice, the old scathis was 4 times as expensive and covered a 40 times larger area to attack
now tell me the cost reduction was exaggerated!

the only reason why the scathis is actually used now is, because it's more affordable, even though the range really sucks (compared to the old scathis)

That seems suspiciously like a Chewbacca defence. Could you please elaborate why you think a range decrease justifies the massive cost reduction in mass & if so, why wasn't this applied to, for example, the Mavor as well?

Statistics: Posted by Lyr — 02 Dec 2012, 02:30

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-02T02:12:51+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Inaccuracy issues. Also, your proposed idea simply makes the scathis twice as bad as the original because there is no serious cost reduction for 50% range reduction. That makes it again not usable on the small maps (not usable at all) but also not usable on the largest maps (whereas it was only marginally usable due to inaccuracy).

Scathis should never be practical to build on a small map just like the mavor and salvation. But it can still be built given the right circumstances. In the same way building 3 x T3 arty on isis can sometimes win the game.

I think the mavor should remain unique, capable of hitting targets on 81x81 maps.

This shows Mavor range (4000) vs Salvation range (1800) on a 81x81:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/914e9f223547711

Scathis is best compared to a Salvation which is useful on a 40x40:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/3e8f1b223547702

Given it is a mobile unit it needs to be able to move within range of anything on the 40x40 maps, which is why I think the 1700-1800 range with mass cost of 250k is a good proposal. If facing a land threat at the front lines it can be moved, at reasonable speed, towards the back of the base and then back out again. This demonstrates good faction diversity.

If you are worried about accuracy issues the firing randomness can be adjusted. Speed should be buffed to 2.5+ to make it practical to move around (currently speed 1).

I would like to see the Scathis being useful as a game ender on 20x20 to 40x40 maps and uneconomical to build on a smaller map. Perhaps if the enemy feeds you 100k mass you can build one, otherwise you are better off making 3 Disruptors on a small map.

Statistics: Posted by noms — 02 Dec 2012, 02:12

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-01T22:05:26+02:00

Lyr wrote:
Stin wrote:The important thing to take from this entire thread is that people are willing to ask for big changes to things based on......I dont know, poor skill level, database stats and whimsy.
I'm so glad that the people actually running the show are sensible enough to see through it. A rare case of actual common sense being applied.

I stopped taking you seriously when I saw you only have 13 games. Why argue about balance if you don't play the game?

Of course, because FAF is the ONLY way to play FA
I care because its ridiculous to say the soul ripper and scathis are OP. Even I with my measly 13 games can see that there's no problem with them. The total lack of replays kind of backs me up.

And why did you delete the PM you sent me? Was it more irrational tripe?

[EDIT] 8 pages and STILL no replays showing how OP a Scathis is. Must be a REAL big problem......

Statistics: Posted by Stin — 01 Dec 2012, 22:05

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-01T17:36:32+02:00

noms wrote:
Why not make the Scathis' range (and cost) similar to a Mavor?

Inaccuracy issues. Also, your proposed idea simply makes the scathis twice as bad as the original because there is no serious cost reduction for 50% range reduction. That makes it again not usable on the small maps (not usable at all) but also not usable on the largest maps (whereas it was only marginally usable due to inaccuracy).

Furthermore, you can just upload your files on the forum (use the upload attachment tab below the reply field when you reply). I'm very unwilling to provide some vague website with an email adress for one download.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 01 Dec 2012, 17:36

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-02T04:39:53+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Would be stupid, it's a mobile unit, if the range is unlimited, what do you want to make it mobile ?

Also, faction diversity.

So it needs to be uneconomical to build on smaller maps but practical enough on larger maps.

Current: range 330, mass 63k, energy 780k, max speed 1, turn rate 40, dps 1580

Proposed: range 1700-1800, mass 250k, energy 5000k, max speed 2.5, turn rate 75, dps unchanged

Compared to:

Salvation: range 1800, mass 270k, energy 5400k, dps 2555
Mavor: range 4000, mass 300k, energy 6000k, dps 1500

Statistics: Posted by noms — 01 Dec 2012, 17:11

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-01T14:29:09+02:00

Myxir wrote:
[...]
don't blame the scathis because you're inable to counterattack it, if the enemy gets a scathis done while you have nothing to compete against, it's YOUR FAULT, and not the scathis beeing too strong
[...]
and please don't bring replays of Isis or Thermo, these maps are kinda made for turtles and the scathis is doing its job to annihilate them - nothing wrong here.

exactly

additionally: if you all cry OMG CYBRAN EVERYTHING OP why the [ ] is Cybrand then still the less played race overall??
why are you not all playing cybran, why do i have no replay showing opness of scatis yet?

yes because we have an [add two words of your choice here] that was ownd by a better player with scatis one time and can't move on or accept that he played [ ]
maybe you show us the replay where you got ownd or are you scared that we could see that your enemy was only playing with you and would have had several cahnces to kill you with anything? i bet he could have killed you with t1 bots if he would have want to

just close this thread just close it

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 01 Dec 2012, 14:29

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-01T13:52:36+02:00

Lyr wrote:
It was a silly change, how could a 75% mass reduction be anything other than a shot in the dark?

ok, let's compare cost reduction to covered area reduction

Code:: the formula for covered area in a circle is r²*PI, so let's see... (let's say PI is 3.14, too lazy for more precise calculation) new scathis: range from 50 to 330, that means 330²*PI - 50²*PI = 341946 - 7850 = 334096 old scathis range from 50 to unlimited (80km distance is equal to 4096 range, but only half of it is useful, because maps aren't 80km long in both directions) 2048²*PI - 50²*PI = 13170114 - 7850 = 13162264 now let's compare the covered area... 13162264 / 334096 = 39.4

we notice, the old scathis was 4 times as expensive and covered a 40 times larger area to attack
now tell me the cost reduction was exaggerated!

the only reason why the scathis is actually used now is, because it's more affordable, even though the range really sucks (compared to the old scathis)

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 01 Dec 2012, 13:52

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-01T12:50:55+02:00

Would be stupid, it's a mobile unit, if the range is unlimited, what do you want to make it mobile ?

Also, faction diversity.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 01 Dec 2012, 12:50

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-02T01:18:58+02:00

Scathis is a "game ender" IF within range of enemy base AND IF it can be protected.

Game enders should cost more than 63k mass.

UEF -> Mavor
Aeon -> Paragon/Salvation
Sera -> Yolona Oss
Cybran -> Scathis

Why not make the Scathis' range (and cost) similar to a Mavor?

Statistics: Posted by noms — 01 Dec 2012, 12:19

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-01T11:50:32+02:00

Stin wrote:
The important thing to take from this entire thread is that people are willing to ask for big changes to things based on......I dont know, poor skill level, database stats and whimsy.
I'm so glad that the people actually running the show are sensible enough to see through it. A rare case of actual common sense being applied.

I stopped taking you seriously when I saw you only have 13 games. Why argue about balance if you don't play the game?

Myxir wrote:
don't you get that the single purpose of a scathis is to break turtles?
(and maybe kill navy)

it can barely be used due to the very limited range (and you can't transport it over water), so it's very useless on big maps
10x10 is maybe the only map size where the scathis can be strong, and it's only strong if you chose not to prevent it from beeing built or find a useful counterattack

don't blame the scathis because you're inable to counterattack it, if the enemy gets a scathis done while you have nothing to compete against, it's YOUR FAULT, and not the scathis beeing too strong

and please don't bring replays of Isis or Thermo, these maps are kinda made for turtles and the scathis is doing its job to annihilate them - nothing wrong here.

also, if you compare the scathis to t3 stationary arty (and ofc notice it's far stronger), it's because the t3 stationary arty is far too weak for its cost, this unit is underpowered or overpriced, nothing wrong with the scathis

I don't think that's a valid argument. The Scathis went from being a white elephant (like all the other units in it's class) to still being a white elephant except in a handful of situations where it's a "I win" button. How is that a good outcome?

The turtle argument doesn't work, it's a turtle enabler, it gives a player a viable option for winning a game through porcing.

So what you've said is it's okay for one player to turtle but not another?

Isis is a ranked map so replays are very much applicable from Isis.

Buffing Scathis to be significantly cheaper than T3 arty seems to me like T3 arty has been given up for dead. If you look at the timeline for when this change was made, it seems heavy handed. It seems some people think that mass cost adjustments are the only way to buff a unit. It was a silly change, how could a 75% mass reduction be anything other than a shot in the dark? It seems the balance team were just throwing a change at the wall and hoping it stuck.

All the Cybran Exps were buffed significantly across the board, according to the prevailing opinion that Cybran were underpowered. It seems to be completely reactionary. The corresponding UEF Exp buff was 25 dmg for the Novax and an unspecified cost reduction. Cybran Killer's charge that UEF gets the short shrift every time isn't off the mark.

Statistics: Posted by Lyr — 01 Dec 2012, 11:50

Re: Scathis OP on smallish team maps

2012-12-01T11:34:14+02:00

don't you get that the single purpose of a scathis is to break turtles?
(and maybe kill navy)

it can barely be used due to the very limited range (and you can't transport it over water), so it's very useless on big maps
10x10 is maybe the only map size where the scathis can be strong, and it's only strong if you chose not to prevent it from beeing built or find a useful counterattack

don't blame the scathis because you're inable to counterattack it, if the enemy gets a scathis done while you have nothing to compete against, it's YOUR FAULT, and not the scathis beeing too strong

and please don't bring replays of Isis or Thermo, these maps are kinda made for turtles and the scathis is doing its job to annihilate them - nothing wrong here.

also, if you compare the scathis to t3 stationary arty (and ofc notice it's far stronger), it's because the t3 stationary arty is far too weak for its cost, this unit is underpowered or overpriced, nothing wrong with the scathis

edit:
if you complain about the scathis because it's unique and you have to build it in some games, why don't you complain about uef engy stations, paragon and stuff like that aswell?
-> because it's not new, you're used to it. get used to the scathis too

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 01 Dec 2012, 11:34

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-02T01:14:05+02:00

And here is a replay showing how much damage it can do to a shielded base. Fast forward to 4 minutes to see the scathis firing.

After 5 mins I added several T3 sera shields (21k hp) but scathis still broke through.

458764-noms_scathis_demo.fafreplay

Statistics: Posted by noms — 01 Dec 2012, 06:15

Re: Scathis and Soulripper OP?

2012-12-01T06:34:49+02:00

http://www.imagebam.com/image/56a28d223415299

Screenshot showing scathis range on isis. It can easily reach most of the enemy bases.

A good player will protect it with multiple T2/T3 shields, T4 units, multiple TMD, SMD, T3 PD, ASF. If enemy rushes with T4 bots they will be at a disadvantage due to heavy base defences.

You can also see the range of a mobile T3 arty from the other side of the central ridge. It can't reach the scathis.

I think the best counter would be bank of 10+ TML to snipe the scathis but this is still defendable.

As scathis is only 63k mass it can be built within minutes with combined eco.

Statistics: Posted by noms — 01 Dec 2012, 05:31