Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Sacrifice

2012-12-06T22:53:44+02:00

Where you referring to the actual mechanics behind sacrifice or just the numbers?
I know how to change the numbers, if its changing the mechanics please give me some reference so I can find the part in the mod.

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 06 Dec 2012, 22:53

Re: Sacrifice

2012-12-04T07:29:54+02:00

Hi guys,

I found out how it's works ... It's pretty simple. I implemented it on my 3599 mod

here the link

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/12/1/ ... atchV5.zip

try it

If something isn't clear post your question

regards

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 04 Dec 2012, 07:29

Re: Sacrifice

2012-11-05T00:42:29+02:00

dstojkov wrote:
Sacrifice only works on buildings staff not on assist like for building a nuke missile or con upgrade still thought work on mass extractor upgrade even if it is not worth the change

Doesn't work for nukes works for everything else.
Ide like to see sacrifice used, if its abused nerf it if its unused it probably needs a buff/removal

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 05 Nov 2012, 00:42

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-29T18:35:25+02:00

Sacrifice only works on buildings staff not on assist like for building a nuke missile or con upgrade still thought work on mass extractor upgrade even if it is not worth the change

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 29 Oct 2012, 18:35

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-28T09:26:48+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
Taking energy from power storage is a bad idea, its like giving them huge amounts of free build power.

Good point I didn't think about that, in this case I would punish it more than 0.9 efficiency but you could just give a lump of unitbuildpower*10 which would be the equivalent of the unit standing there for 10secs but you bring that forwards to the now (assuming sufficient reserves) and lose the rushing unit. This can be done by writing a script, I have no idea how it would react in game though so another day maybe...

Anyhow the point of this post was to point out that there is almost no use to sacrifice while its at 0.6/0.6 and it should be moved up to 0.9/0.9 for testing. Faction diversity is a beautiful thing.

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 28 Oct 2012, 09:26

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T16:01:00+02:00

and how about CZARs? last time I checked they were pretty energy intensive. Or maybe SACUs. Or any of the other examples I listed. Its a badly thought out idea and I'm not going to take any more time discussing it.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 27 Oct 2012, 16:01

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T15:50:51+02:00

For the first 10 or so ASF then yes, it would be in theory a better idea to use sacrifice. But because you dont get 100% mass efficiency and the insane micro required after a while it would be best to just make 100 T1 engineers for build power instead of sacrificing them into units.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 27 Oct 2012, 15:50

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T15:24:41+02:00

SACUs have a really high ratio of energy to mass anyway so it won't affect them, but by saying take the energy out of storage you are making for example the RAS upgrade possible instantly with sufficient storage and 30 engineers at t1.

What happens when you don't have storage? Does the sacrifice fail? Do you just lose a unit and gain nothing?

End game you this totally fails the balance test. A t1 factory would be making an engineer every 13 seconds, which could sacrifice to build anything else. Give this the "take from power storage idea", and this effectively means that at a cost of just 240 mass, you have something that can put 4 mass per second into anything. Or you could fork out well over 3000 mass to build a t3 air fac that can only make asf at a rate of 8 mass per second.

While this is most pronounced for air production, its goes for everything else as well, like building exps, t3 arty, SACUs, etc etc etc, as engineers have such a low energy to mass cost ratio. Plain stupid idea.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 27 Oct 2012, 15:24

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T14:40:19+02:00

It would see an increase in build power for SCUS but with t1 engineers its basically a non issue as it does take ages to sacrifice a hundred of them. When you can mass produce enough scus anyway to make sacrifice for something viable then the other factions would most likely have enough build power for it to be a non issue anyway

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 27 Oct 2012, 14:40

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T13:16:59+02:00

Taking energy from power storage is a bad idea, its like giving them huge amounts of free build power.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 27 Oct 2012, 13:16

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-27T12:56:27+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
NotAsian wrote:After some quick testing, there are almost no units in the game that you can get a 1:1 ratio for mass when using sacrifice the limiter seems to be energy.

So the logical thing to do would just be to tie it to power and set it to 0.9 + infinite mass. That way its more effective on more mass intensive things than on power intensive things, which is rather what we want.

I dont like this idea. Having it give infinite power or infinite mass could allow you to get certain units very cheaply and very quickly. ACU shield upgrades could be seen a few mins in or having infite mas could allow you to build high mass requirement and low e requirement things for a very cheap price. Could have a nasty effect on game balance.

Best option is for it to take the energy away from power storage.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 27 Oct 2012, 12:56

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-25T20:10:26+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
you done good wor researching that. I did think about giving them infinite energ when they are sacrificed but that could easily be abused for early high power ACU upgrades. A better option would be just to double the power they give when sacraficed. Or could this be abused still?

Another option that might require more coding is saying well 1 mass is equal to 150 energy. So it would convert the energy needed first and add that then add on the leftover mass.

Also another option is it to take away the energy needed out of your storage. I think this is by far the best option.

I spent a good hour looking for a way to give it a large impulse of BP but I discovered the functionality of sacrifice is part of the .exe or it could be one of the .dll files but I doubt it its possible to locate the class by decompiling but it may take years

At the moment it takes the engees lowest resource cost and injects it into the buildings highest resource cost all we can tweak is the weightings.

Doubling the energy provided would make it more useful for acu upgrades but those upgrades are on a scale of like 30:1 so the mass loses would still be to large to be useful. Although it would allow t1 PD to only cost 5 - 6 engees.

DilliDalli wrote:
NotAsian wrote:After some quick testing, there are almost no units in the game that you can get a 1:1 ratio for mass when using sacrifice the limiter seems to be energy.

So the logical thing to do would just be to tie it to power and set it to 0.9 + infinite mass. That way its more effective on more mass intensive things than on power intensive things, which is rather what we want.

I think that's t2 art and some land units, but in the case of the SACU would make GC creation a scary possibility.

But either way there is no reason for it to be set so low.

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 25 Oct 2012, 20:10

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-25T19:47:44+02:00

NotAsian wrote:
After some quick testing, there are almost no units in the game that you can get a 1:1 ratio for mass when using sacrifice the limiter seems to be energy.

So the logical thing to do would just be to tie it to power and set it to 0.9 + infinite mass. That way its more effective on more mass intensive things than on power intensive things, which is rather what we want.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 25 Oct 2012, 19:47

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-25T19:38:55+02:00

you done good wor researching that. I did think about giving them infinite energ when they are sacrificed but that could easily be abused for early high power ACU upgrades. A better option would be just to double the power they give when sacraficed. Or could this be abused still?

Another option that might require more coding is saying well 1 mass is equal to 150 energy. So it would convert the energy needed first and add that then add on the leftover mass.

Also another option is it to take away the energy needed out of your storage. I think this is by far the best option.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 25 Oct 2012, 19:38

Re: Sacrifice

2012-10-25T03:03:45+02:00

After some quick testing, there are almost no units in the game that you can get a 1:1 ratio for mass when using sacrifice the limiter seems to be energy.
Under 0.6 it takes 13 engees for a t1 PD; under 0.9 it takes 9.

assuming that you would only use this in a emergency on a 50% complete pd it would take 4 - 5 which is the mass price of the pd and this is with 0.9 instead of 0.6.
Engees are useless to suicide on acu for upgrade as they will remove <1second from the time.
Oddly enough best unit to sacrifice is the SACU as its energy to mass ratio is 14.14:1
Ratios
T1 engee -5:1
T2 engee -5.25:1
T3 engee -6.43:1
SACU------14.14:1
All structures are at least 10:1 in price units, about the same GC is 12.5:1 so mass is conserved using SACUs.
Although it would still take 10.5 SACUs to instantly get a GC ~32k so this strat would only make sense if you could keep the SACUs alive for 250seconds. and this is using 0.9 values.
Conclusion the sacrifice values should be brought back up to 0.9 as it is infeasible that sacrifice is even slightly useful atm.

I didn't test the infinite mods for mass or energy but as only the energy would have any influence on balance that would have to be tested in a real game.

Statistics: Posted by NotAsian — 25 Oct 2012, 03:03