Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-06T11:29:18+02:00

Hey ftx,

While the quality isn't there, random maps are interesting for ladder because they favour improvisation over rehearsal. Pretty sure I remember Blackheart being interested in mapgen as well.

A mapgen "week" might be overdoing it but what about one mapgen "day"?

The benefits are:
- developer has motivation to improve improve improve
- gain feedback
- interesting for players

The league provides a very serious ladder experience and that has just finished. End of league seems like a good time to try something like this because
- doesnt interfere with league
- gives the ladder players who have been thrashing it something new, a reason to continue with ladder now that the big league is paused

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 06 Aug 2020, 11:29

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T18:52:55+02:00

then what? what is it that's wrong? again not saying they're perfect. just saying I don't know. (aesthetics aside)

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Aug 2020, 18:52

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T17:49:26+02:00

I fail to see the benefit in some sort of combination of curated maps and a map generator. Either the map generator is good enough to associate with curated maps, or it isn’t. If it is, it replaces the curated maps. Or at least it would be up for discussion. If it isn’t, it doesn’t and so it stays out of ladder.

I’m also not interested in throwing a generator that creates bad ladder maps into ladder for the memes. There are better ways to test the program without harming user experience.

Any sort of experiment using the generator within ladder requires a bare minimum quality check.

Also, we ARE talking about aesthetics. Ladder maps are graded on a weighted rating across the categories of aesthetics/gameplay/variance. Maps can look like shit and still get into ladder (badlands), but it requires the map to perform better in other categories. And no, there is more to my expectations than a map being symmetrical and not bugged.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Aug 2020, 17:49

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T17:04:11+02:00

Well I can understand the reluctance to a perm random ladder - but how about a one-off experimental mapgen ladder week? Just for a casual laugh to see what it's like - then we put it back.

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 05 Aug 2020, 17:04

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T16:41:54+02:00

aethetics will never be up to par with the manmande works of art we're dealing with nowadays. NEVER.

Is that what we're debating is the problem here? I'd like to hope it was understood amongst us all here no matter the side we're on that that was not even "one of" the problems that were being debated here.

We are talking about competitive ladder. just as a reminder.

and just as a reminder NOONE is suggesting removing manmader maps completely and utterly.

(And don't debate with me that I was. I'm not and I reaffirming that with this reply so that's settled.)

So we're talking about the possibility of injecting theoretical infinite variance into the map pool.

On the surface and if the maps aren't unbalanced or bugged or otherwise contrary to FAF fun then that's a good thing right?

Apparently not and I want to know why. I want to know WHY from the naysayers SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE their opinion matters in fixing these procedurally generated maps.

and in that case there would be no objections left to random maps in ladder? (I like the generated on the fly Idea, that would be my ultimate goal, obviously there would be a first few months where we only let human-curated maps out of the generated batches into the ladder pool so you would have the BO effect on those maps, but after the generator stops producing maps that vetters ever veto then we can say the trial period is over and it could be on-the-fly generation.)

AdmiralZeech wrote:
Maybe you could explain what makes a good 1v1 map in your opinion, and how the generated maps will always fulfill your criteria?

I'm not saying they perfectly do fulfill my criteria right now, but I'd be unable to say why. I guess I'd defer to more experienced players to be able to say that. or maybe there's nothing wrong with them at all (aesthetics aside).

Here's a replay where I had a fucking fucking blast : https://replay.faforever.com/12333829

I like that.

I like the idea of not having to wait for someone (who obviously knows about procedural map gen and that they're worth a shot) to join my host.

I like the idea of clicking the "play" button in ladder and be thrown into that (and without having seen the preview) please yes. making the play button that much better? yes. please.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Aug 2020, 16:41

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T16:19:40+02:00

tatsu wrote:
What no talking? on a forum?

Maybe you could explain what makes a good 1v1 map in your opinion, and how the generated maps will always fulfill your criteria?

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 05 Aug 2020, 16:19

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T12:50:57+02:00

I wanted to chime in quickly here as I am currently the dev working on the map generator. First I wanted to say that the map generator has made improvements recently to the variation and quality of the maps generated. That being said, I understand that it is most likely not up to consistently putting out the quality of maps that would be desired in the map pool, and individual maps cannot really be used to judge the quality. I like to think of it as similar to the idea of self-driving cars, sure it can work sometimes but if it doesn't work every time then it shouldn't be solely relied on.

To get it to a place where it is consistently generating good maps I am working with the ladder team to help refine the map generator with the principles they use for rigorously evaluating maps. I am also open to any general feedback as well from the player-base.
I am regularly hosting 1v1s on generated maps as this is the best way to get feedback on how the maps play so feel free to join me or host your own as this is ultimately what will allow it to be developed the fastest. I just ask that you include map gen or generator in the title as this makes the replays easier to find.

biass wrote:
The ladder pool is not going to be able to reroll the map and adjust settings per each map. It does not do it with adaptive maps and it will not do it here. I clicked generate in the lobby ONCE and rolled this abomination; I couldn't have asked for a better example. Furthermore, the map is of such a low visual standard that user created maps made of the same standard are oft removed from the vault and their authors on rare occasion banned from uploading.

I'm sure the dev is aware of this, as well as what he discussed with FtX in the PC discord.

On the note of the settings, they are passed along in the map name as values that are used to seed different terrain generation. So it is entirely feasible that maps generated for the more competitive purposes are given a restricted set of options. This is what I view as the first step in working with the ladder team.

And yes the aesthetics are not great and need to be improved.

Statistics: Posted by Sheikah — 05 Aug 2020, 12:50

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T12:41:49+02:00

keyser just linked the ladder channel on the Discord in my signature, not sure why it didn't open for you.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Aug 2020, 12:41

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T13:09:16+02:00

armacham01 wrote:
One reason to avoid using generated maps is that we won't be able to watch the replays (unless FAF starts saving every single randomly-generated map, OR if it saves the seeds AND it saves the code to generate a map from a seed)

Just as a note this has been fixed in client version 1.1.9 so generated map replays are now watchable. The map will be regenerated when the replay is opened as the map name is the seed.

Statistics: Posted by Sheikah — 05 Aug 2020, 12:00

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T11:59:32+02:00

404 :

Screenshot from 2020-08-05 11-58-49.png

is that something to make me take the hint or which channel is it?

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Aug 2020, 11:59

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T11:36:33+02:00

you can find all the information you want here : https://discord.com/channels/4562961000 ... 1133714443

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 05 Aug 2020, 11:36

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T10:47:49+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
there is nothing to be gained by me explaining why it's bad at making competitive maps here.

What no talking? on a forum?

No I think you can do better than a :

“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”

on the freaking FAF forum.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Aug 2020, 10:47

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T10:43:42+02:00

tatsu wrote:
we

This isn't a "we" debate but a "me" debate.

I can tell you don't know mapping principles, don't need to reemphasize.

To reiterate, I'm already working with the developer of the map generator and there is nothing to be gained by me explaining why it's bad at making competitive maps here.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Aug 2020, 10:43

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T14:01:09+02:00

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Aug 2020, 10:39

Re: Ladder maps

2020-08-05T07:09:31+02:00

tatsu wrote:
I take it you're firmly in the "5 maps in the pool for everyone tops" camp; since you talk about memorizing build order

So I don't see exactly what you're saying there. I thought the side that wanted memorised BO to the last second was crushed in the polls on map pool?

Do your research before you act so mighty.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15551&hilit=ladder+pool+size#p157535

Or at least try to remember, because you even wrote in that thread yourself.

tatsu wrote:
plus the parameters of this map generator (I'm sure you realized as you were generating this one) are quite configurable. so you could for example have less to no water on larger maps, not that larger maps are predominant on ladder I thought we also agreed?

The ladder pool is not going to be able to reroll the map and adjust settings per each map. It does not do it with adaptive maps and it will not do it here. I clicked generate in the lobby ONCE and rolled this abomination; I couldn't have asked for a better example. Furthermore, the map is of such a low visual standard that user created maps made of the same standard are oft removed from the vault and their authors on rare occasion banned from uploading.

I'm sure the dev is aware of this, as well as what he discussed with FtX in the PC discord.

I also agree with FtX that if you can't tell the difference between the example I posted and a user created map, you don't have what is required for a discussion about the topic. I don't know how you fix that, go make some comparisons? get better at the game? dunno.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 05 Aug 2020, 07:09