Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-12-25T21:07:53+02:00

If ladder is dead , multiplayer is dead. Of which I am pretty sad , if it is so. I will try to return once more.
Catering more for 2v2, or more while ignoring 1v1, is like being worried for thermo 20 min no rush x2 , no no no
and ignoring main game.

Also catering for people with all the time in the world more than normal people who have 1-2 hours to spend per day or a little more per week.
No game that has not become an esport survived for long, and no esport snobs 1v1.....

I don't see a reason why 1v1 or 2v2 or more can't coexist . It hadn't been more than 2 years from FAF launch and most worked fast with far greater
complexity regarding 1v1 2v2 or more ranking , player classification , galactic war and so on.

It doesn't need to be that complex. It just needs to work.

PS. One further note. Just because Starcraft 2 launches 1 update every week , because they have no better job to do , or no other way
to keep players interested, it does not mean it is a good practice. For God's sake, it has been 12 years since the launch of the game. We do not
need no further balance changes.We just need to be able to play the game, without such hindrance.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 25 Dec 2019, 21:07

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-11-11T18:39:26+02:00

Change the UI to make it more informative its plain ugly,

https://i.redd.it/o24z7p5pbuk01.png is a good example of a "good" lobby ui, (lichess lobby screen).

also get rid of the delay, it needlessly frustrates players for marginal gain, if you have to have it make it 10 second intervals.

Statistics: Posted by randall172 — 11 Nov 2019, 18:39

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-11-06T20:26:59+02:00

getting stuck in "setting up automatch" now is at least 3 times as painfull

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 06 Nov 2019, 20:26

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-14T18:41:17+02:00

Considering that we've been worrying about ladder not being played enough for most of the history of FAF, I would have thought that additional barriers to participation are a pretty bad idea.

We should be thinking of methods to make 1v1 wait times shorter, not make them longer for the sake of mechanical purity or developer convenience.

FAF (particularly ladder) is already on thin ice. With so much competition for players' time from newer games etc, all it takes is a little bit of extra friction for someone to decide it's not worth it. When it comes to multiplayer games, there's a certain population required for the game to be viable.

Anyways, I apologize and withdraw all my comments if the FAF team already considers ladder dead and thus it doesn't matter what the experience is like.

A fighting game streamer's rant on delays in matchmaking:
https://youtu.be/KQBfUP-w3_0

The main point is that, when a player is excited from winning or losing a match, any delay that allows them to cool down will disproportionately reduce the likelihood that they'll play "just one more match."
Although of course fighting game players have low IQ and poor attention spans compared to cultured RTS players, so such an opinion is surely irrelevant, I admit.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 14 Sep 2019, 18:41

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-11T22:25:49+02:00

Waiting 3 min to get better matches only makes sense if there are multiple players trying to get a game. If there are not, then it doesn't help at all and just adds annoyance.

I'd suggest adding a feature that looks at the average time people wait to get into a game, and then scales the wait period based on that. So, if the avg person waits >10 min, drop the match time down to 30s.

Statistics: Posted by Quant — 11 Sep 2019, 22:25

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-11T18:39:37+02:00

So, to summarize:

Ladder queues are currently forced to operate this way because they will be merged with the team matchmaking when it comes online. The rationale behind this is that a subset of players will queue for team games, a subset of players will queue for 1v1s, and a subset of players will queue for any game (1v1 or team game) indiscriminately. The third subset requires the system be merged so that 1v1s and team games can be queued for as part of the same search algorithm.

That is my understanding so far.

My question is: does that third subset even exist? And if it exists, are they even a sizeable portion of the population? I have never once signed onto FaF and been in a mood where I didn't care if I was put into a 1v1 or a team game. This isn't something like Halo where the difference between game types (Assault vs TDM vs CTF) are relatively minor. The differences between team games and 1v1s are so vastly different that I can't imagine being in a situation where I didn't have a preference for one or the other. Hell, for no other reason, your average team game can last five to eight times longer than your average 1v1 depending on the maps and the team balance.

Do people really not have a preference between 1v1s and teamplay before clicking the button to queue? Does the third subset really exist? People who are only choosing between distinct searches for 1v1s or teamplays right now because they have to, and in the future would much prefer letting the whims of fate decide for them by queuing for both simultaneously?

I'm genuinely curious. Are these people even around in any significant numbers?

Statistics: Posted by Mlawrance — 11 Sep 2019, 18:39

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-11T18:27:35+02:00

It's been mentioned before but an algorithm which takes into account wait time vs game quality and also (not mentioned but would be fucking epic) takes into consideration the game frequency at the current rating could be useful in determining more adequate wait times. If the likelihood that someone is going to get a game consistently at their rating is high this system could take the time in waiting around for that player whereas if the chance of that game was low (extremely low ratings or extremely high ratings) then the game would work towards opting out of a good game quality and broaden its search. If it's working perfectly it could also take into account stats such as games played at a certain rating and at a specific time. Even if this would not be possible surely it could just be done using the total time waited in queue reducing the required rating limit for the queue to pop. To reiterate my point earlier, with the amount of backlash this system has created, I think it would be irresponsible to take the 6 min wait and implement that and taking this approach would be more in line with making sure TMM isn't DOA.

Statistics: Posted by Dro — 11 Sep 2019, 18:27

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-11T18:13:01+02:00

Not only that but i think axel said he wanted to up the waiting time to 6 minutes in the latest dev conference, dunno if this has been mentioned. Imagine getting so unlucky that you have to wait like 5:30 for 4 ladder games, you essentially wait 20+ mins for games that could only last 30 mins. I think priority queues would work if the game was more alive and they would be a lot easier to implement but as it stands the player base just isn't there to do this in ladder. Best not chase of what little player base is left with wait times that are just too long.

Statistics: Posted by Dro — 11 Sep 2019, 18:13

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-09T07:55:30+02:00

Fully understand why it needs to be this way for TMM but right now as it stands the experience is way worse for players, especially that persona of not queuing and just hitting the popup to get a fast game to avoid anxieties, wait times and etc.

It is probably best if something like QAI gave a link to a well written explanation, especially for new players and first timers. I don't think that ladder can be left like it is currently and frankly, we have been trying to explain to new players how ladder works every day for years now.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 09 Sep 2019, 07:55

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-09T07:32:27+02:00

I think something that would be really helpful is to have QAI either periodically link to the explanations in this thread, or a different one that explains everything, because I don't foresee the complaints stopping.

Statistics: Posted by UnorthodoxBox — 09 Sep 2019, 07:32

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-08T23:05:34+02:00

The two main problems with queue system are:

1) new players having a difficult time matching due to the fact their high deviation inherently makes game quality tank. This often means that the people they should be matching against face someone closer to their rating and new players are a “last straw” for the system. This is not helped by the fact that new players have code that adjusts their matches to what are generally the most common ratings on the ladder.

The solution here was to develop code that basically tells the server to match a new player against any player under 1500 rating game quality be damned after they search for a certain period of time.

2) the ends of the bell curve (<400 and >1800) tend to have difficulty getting games as their opponents closer to the top of the bell curve are more likely to get a “high quality” match against someone closer to their rating.

The solution here is to create some sort of priority system that can take into account your search length. This one is a bit harder and how to create the solution is still being discussed.

And yes, a timer is already in the next patch.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 08 Sep 2019, 23:05

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-08T23:01:45+02:00

So finally, we got a clear answer. I think that ALL of the drama could be easily avoided just by communicating with players and explaining everything clearly. Make a what's new post stating the change, why is it needed, etc. Preferably add some ETA on the matchmaker or at least state the progress.

Instead, what players got is a random change to ladder system that makes their experience playing it worse (has anyone even thought about that?). Reasons behind it are unclear and have to gather info by bits from someone who heard something about it, but that's not for sure. And a condencsending PC that goes down on people trying to explain it to them shit (not everyone is allowed on zulip after all xD).

Wonder why faf authorities are not that popular with the general crowd...

PS still dont agree with it but w/e, maybe i'll change my mind later when the MM is finally there lol

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 08 Sep 2019, 23:01

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-08T22:34:17+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
And inb4, why do we need players to queue in EVERY possible game type at the same time?
Just make it ladder. And team matchmaker.
Honestly, such separation makes more sense. There are a number of dedicated players for both game types and they rarely intersect.

People want 1v1 - they search 1v1 only. They want teammatchmaker - they search that only. They search both if they don't really care what they play.

Remember, the goal is to encourage as many people as possible to use the matchmaker in general. Doing it this way solves any future issue where you have to decide "do I search TMM or Ladder" if the only thing you care about is getting a game.

...and again, I'm struggling to see the problem with the timer. There are annoying things, I know, like the notification isn't amazing, and sometimes players get left out when the system matches 2 closer (in rating) people and the third might be unable to match because of it. But stuff like this needs to be fixed for the TMM anyway, and there's been progress on that tweaking done.

Also, bennis, you asked about a timer shown in the client. It will be in the next java one at the least, i'm pretty sure.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 08 Sep 2019, 22:34

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-08T22:29:12+02:00

And inb4, why do we need players to queue in EVERY possible game type at the same time?
Just make it ladder. And team matchmaker.
Honestly, such separation makes more sense. There are a number of dedicated players for both game types and they rarely intersect.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 08 Sep 2019, 22:29

Re: Ladder queue waiting times need to be reverted

2019-09-08T22:25:52+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
Fuk u.

Why do they need to share the same queue? They are absolutely different game types.
Same criterias as before pls.

So you can search in 1v1 at the same time as 2v2/3v3/4v4 or however the team matchmaker will eventually be implemented - if it's all one system, you can search all at once. Two seperate systems, can't search both at once.

Being able to search both at once for people to get into games as a primary goal is important.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 08 Sep 2019, 22:25