Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-03-05T22:48:48+02:00

my two cents.

first, I havn't plaid in forever, not because of anything FAF related, but because I'm 36yo, and after work I just don't feel like giting gud, I might get back into it though.
When I did play though, and I think I never went over 800 rating on ladder, I actually disliked small maps. I loved the games when it came out because of the epicness of it, and I wanted to play with the big toys.

If anything, especially at the very start of playing online, I dreaded the small maps. One mistake and it's over, losing for losing I preferred getting a chance of getting to play a bit, instead of having someone walk straight in my base at minute 1 with his ACU.

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 05 Mar 2019, 22:48

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-28T18:36:40+02:00

Well, it IS hard to begin on these maps, but it's still manageable, you'll get reamed a couple times but will eventually get good before you get tired of being cannon fodder.
I mean, it's nowhere like the learning curve (or, more correctly, the learning skyscraper wall) of Wargame Red Dragon.

Statistics: Posted by Orao_22 — 28 Feb 2019, 18:36

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-23T15:22:09+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
Even if I had 20 coders ready and willing to implement the idea no one has discussed even one of the roadblocks I mentioned in the implementation. Odd for you to mention coder manpower when the only time I’ve ever even touched the issue was to explain a choice pool would be a more efficient utlizaion of dev time because it specificially doesn’t run into the roadblocks caused by two pools.

Is doing extra work for no reason not a negative? I thought you were against the coding playground of FAF? Isn’t a coding playground defined by people adding pointless nonsense to the client just because they want it?

Ugh what is that barrage of questions? Pls dont breed insinuations and extra meanings.

I just find it funny how people are arguing cons and pros of such a system for players, and you always come in with one of your arguement against... that it is extra work, not efficient use of dev time, etc. Wording can vary but it does not concern players and their experience whatsoever. Kappa.

Also before you gonna reply anything, im not trying to argue more on the topic in the slightest. Just making myself clear on my previous statements. And yes, i am aware of the difficulties of implementation and hence questioning the benefits even more. But people still can discuss matters, cant they?

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 23 Feb 2019, 15:22

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-23T04:10:24+02:00

corsair831 wrote:
Berate newer players all you want Morax,

First off, you're clearly not a "new" player. And you're not yet a voice for all "bad" (soz) players either.

most people are just there to have fun, and learning the mass deposits and the optimal builds is something 90% of players are never going to do.

As much as i push people to have fun, the only incentive to playing ladder is ranked points. There USED to be avatar incentives in the divisions system, but you clearly were not playing ladder when they were in, despite being around at the time.

Every new player wants to blame build orders but i honestly believe you don't need an "optimal build" to play your supposed 500 ladder. especially on larger maps because as it's been said, the consequences happen far slower.

I'm saying that more care should perhaps be taken to ensure that the majority aren't confronted with something completely overwhelming when they attempt to play a 1v1, and it would be better if there were some way to ease them in to it.

I have been pushing for incentives to play the game for a while now, so i agree, search anxiety is still a thing regardless of game though. It's something that i had issue with in a multitude of FPS games.

Notice how many of the posts from people with thousands of forum posts are "noobs are noobs, they're disgusting and should be pro's instead", whilst the posts from people with like 5 posts are usually "the maps are too hard for me".

That's because defeatist attitudes and blaming everything else for losses is the number one reason for staying low rated on this client and i am speaking to you about this with a large quantity of training experience. People just "playing for fun" and maybe picking up on a couple mistakes along the way will not stay 500 rating for long. Meanwhile, you have bisq01 and etc who are always sending the smoke signals to the other tribes about AI's made to keep him low rated, smurfs, lag, his kids, etc. And are under 500 with thousands of games.

The current system does nothing to keep those players around. I think mad mozart's idea of a baby pool with mostly easier maps and just a couple of harder maps in it would keep people around.

The current system does nothing to keep anyone around, in reality. A baby pool however will just spike up player averages as they grind out BO's until they eventually make the rating to get the actual pool, and never advance from there. Faults in their play that were hidden from all but the more experienced trainers will not be able to be corrected as easily and you'll find retention will still be the same or even worse, as pointy wointys around the 1k mark are the most sought after of them all.

ZLO is right, most maps played on FAF global are simple maps, it's obvious people prefer simple maps, FAF is hard, perhaps a baby pool with simple maps to tempt some gap players in to playing 1v1 would be good.

Gap players will not convert to ladder because of a higher change of smaller sized maps, stop thinking Gap players are going to change anything, there is way to much inertia to bother without actual incentive.

Blodir is also right, the payoff time on a small map for a noob is like 3 minutes; "oh, i built a tank, i just killed the enemy's tank, this is fun!!", for a larger map it's more like "the enemy is on an island a 15 minute walk away, there are 300 mass points, i'll probably see some of his tanks in 80 minutes, an hour of eco'ing will not be fun, i should just quit".

This is a fabricated user experience dialog and means nothing.

Just go watch a replay of 2 500 rating players on a 20x20 water map if you don't believe me, it's an absolute shitshow (not one that's obviously 2 smurfs).

Oh, you're one of those people that blame smurfs and etc for everything, are you?

Don't answer that, I already knew.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 23 Feb 2019, 04:10

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-23T00:53:21+02:00

Even if I had 20 coders ready and willing to implement the idea no one has discussed even one of the roadblocks I mentioned in the implementation. Odd for you to mention coder manpower when the only time I’ve ever even touched the issue was to explain a choice pool would be a more efficient utlizaion of dev time because it specificially doesn’t run into the roadblocks caused by two pools.

Is doing extra work for no reason not a negative? I thought you were against the coding playground of FAF? Isn’t a coding playground defined by people adding pointless nonsense to the client just because they want it?

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 23 Feb 2019, 00:53

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-23T00:04:31+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
Another page another dozen posts ignoring the logistics behind actually implementing the idea.

Another page, another post from ftx reminding everyone that there's noone to code their ideas in. Captian obvious 4Head
I think everyone who's been around for a year or so, knows how things go in FAF. And i dare say thats 99% of posters here.
Noone's demanding anything. People are just debating the idea and if its worth it on and of itself. Even to my post, where i questioned your statement of it having zero benefit, you repeated yourself with one of the arguements against being... doing extra work xD (and every other post too)

eXuSe Me, bUt ItS NoT gOiNG tO CoDe ItSeLf, WhY aRe U eVeN dIsCuSsInG aRe U sToOpID

Alright, alright, everyone got it before you even showed up here, calm down.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 23 Feb 2019, 00:04

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-22T23:07:15+02:00

Another page another dozen posts ignoring the logistics behind actually implementing the idea.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 22 Feb 2019, 23:07

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-22T21:35:22+02:00

A baby pool with simple maps is not going to achieve anything extra in getting people to learn the game. You'll learn from maps like Gap or Dual Gap what you can learn, and the added learning curve from having those in 1v1 is how to get to expansions relatively early. Other than that, the game won't be any different.

And then you still have to learn everything that there's to learn (or get used to) for 1v1 games, that you'll still learn from playing 1v1 maps. Sure, the pure basics can be learned form having a 1v1 on a simple map for lower rated players, but you can also learn those basics from (A) watching tutorials (B) watching replays (C) testing things on your own, either against AI or in no-AI sandbox.

So bringing in a baby pool with simple maps will not make people people learn to 1v1, it'll only increase the rating at which they'll get to play on the "big boy map pool".

The biggest argument for a baby pool I've seen so far is that people don't know what to as they're overwhelmed by either the number of mexes available or the massive base the opponent has after 30 minutes for some reason. I think the core of the problem is not the maps, but the player's ability to concentrate, focus, be active and take initiative. I doubt that those problems will be solved with low-rated suitable maps, I think that the complacency factor will actually become bigger than the activeness factor.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 22 Feb 2019, 21:35

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-22T21:13:55+02:00

Berate newer players all you want Morax, most people are just there to have fun, and learning the mass deposits and the optimal builds is something 90% of players are never going to do. I'm saying that more care should perhaps be taken to ensure that the majority aren't confronted with something completely overwhelming when they attempt to play a 1v1, and it would be better if there were some way to ease them in to it.

Notice how many of the posts from people with thousands of forum posts are "noobs are noobs, they're disgusting and should be pro's instead", whilst the posts from people with like 5 posts are usually "the maps are too hard for me".

To the guy saying 900 rating is noob and large maps take 20 minutes, it is not 900 rating players i'm talking about, it's ~~ 500 rating players. The current system does nothing to keep those players around. I think mad mozart's idea of a baby pool with mostly easier maps and just a couple of harder maps in it would keep people around.

ZLO is right, most maps played on FAF global are simple maps, it's obvious people prefer simple maps, FAF is hard, perhaps a baby pool with simple maps to tempt some gap players in to playing 1v1 would be good.

Blodir is also right, the payoff time on a small map for a noob is like 3 minutes; "oh, i built a tank, i just killed the enemy's tank, this is fun!!", for a larger map it's more like "the enemy is on an island a 15 minute walk away, there are 300 mass points, i'll probably see some of his tanks in 80 minutes, an hour of eco'ing will not be fun, i should just quit".

Just go watch a replay of 2 500 rating players on a 20x20 water map if you don't believe me, it's an absolute shitshow (not one that's obviously 2 smurfs).

Statistics: Posted by corsair831 — 22 Feb 2019, 21:13

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-22T09:55:31+02:00

My rating is 800-900 ladder, 20x20 maps normally don't go more than 20min.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 22 Feb 2019, 09:55

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-22T04:04:25+02:00

I also find the large maps hard and many of the people in my rank will just quit when a large map loads so I never really get a chance to practice. Also when we do get into a large map game it takes way longer than I would like. I like to play 1v1 because its generally quick instead of the team games

Statistics: Posted by Ender_Wiggen — 22 Feb 2019, 04:04

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-21T20:03:03+02:00

Blodir wrote:
Endranii wrote:Ok blodir, your so wrong regarding lol and dota that it's not even funny...

?

It's simply not true, death recap is broken and tell's you nothing at all, and that's what everyone agreed on. Dying also tell's you nothing at all about what went wrong considering it was most likely a decision made 1-3 minutes ago, or even in a draft phase.

One map means nothing considering the amount of required knowledge about champions their interactions, win conditions and even such a thing as warding. Just learning to ward my part of map took me hundreds of games due to the fact I need to learn to ward against enemy composition not just spots on the map that look good/obvious.

And yeah it's true what Ftx said there is no small champion pool available for new players, you play with all the champions enabled(with possibility to ban one per game yourself) or you don't play at all. And it's exactly the same here in FAF, with difference being that Champions are switched with MAPS.

As for the ranked games? Milions of them never play ranked because their are afraid of playing it just like in faf, or they play a few games and then go back to draft/blind/aram w/e they want which is equivalent of faf custom games played on dual gap w/e. If I remember correctly only like 20%(and that's the tryhard servers) of player base plays ranked regularly in the week. With 50% of player base trying it out but dropping out due to pressure of playing ranked games. Now extrapolate this data to faf and suddenly it makes way more sense that we have such problems with our player base huh? Not to say it's a moba not RTS.

Oh I forgot to say but the 20% is inflated AF due to smurfs learning to play off-role or even getting back their self-esteem.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 21 Feb 2019, 20:03

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-21T18:33:42+02:00

I'm still curious if corsair shows he's willing to learn maps or not. Otherwise this request is "please make a curated map pool for me cause selfish, typical FaF filthy casual."

There is nothing commando should do based on what was stated.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 21 Feb 2019, 18:33

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-21T12:33:00+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
Idk why everyone is so obsessed with ONLY 5km baby pool, or think this is the only one possible when arguing this idea.
I think a balanced one, with just one 20km and a bunch of 10km is how it should be in the first place, so people get a variety of experience right from the start.

Because that is probably what this discussion is all about?

I'd love to get ZeP's system back with 100 maps and 33/33/33 % chance. The system would get 15 picks from P1, 15 picks from P2 and 15 picks features maps.

However assuming both players are new and pick only same(or similiar) 5x5 maps, the system would form the baby pool from selected 5x5 maps + featured maps. Pretty much what you argue about. But it doesn't need any pool split or additional codding to split systems based on rating and most importantly - it takes players' preferences into account. And that means once new players start growing, they might pick bigger maps, some other maps they like or maps they want to learn. They would also get stronger opponents with different map selection so they would have to learn bigger maps regardless.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 21 Feb 2019, 12:33

Re: Ladder maps are way too hard for 1v1 beginners

2019-02-21T10:30:07+02:00

Doesn’t matter if 20x20s are included. You’re just debating degrees of manipulation as unless the baby pool has the same ratio as the large pool it will favor a type of playstyle that won’t succeed as well in the actual pool. I don’t really see why people can’t see the fact that creating a new pool for no reason conflicts with several constructs used by the client for ladder/general balance.

Like, even if I LOVED the idea of a baby pool it still just makes absolutely zero sense from a dev standpoint because a choice pool with veto would basically accomplish the exact same concept in a way that doesn’t require revising the entire current matchmaker system.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 21 Feb 2019, 10:30