Forged Alliance Forever

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-15T02:32:27+02:00

Crazy Cossack wrote:
The building is at a fixed site and builders have a fixed build range.

Okay so the builders have a fixed build range and they can assist an ACU.

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 15 Oct 2018, 02:32

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-15T02:10:46+02:00

ACUs are punished for upgrading because they cant move & overcharge. This is a good thing in my opinion because it makes the choice of when to upgrade richer.

You are welcome to make mods for whatever you want but you are asking all of these subjective questions ... generally people dont want changes of any kind

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 15 Oct 2018, 02:10

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-15T01:55:32+02:00

"Why do engineers stop to build buildings?" - moonbearonmeth

The building is at a fixed site and builders have a fixed build range. Also, possibly the mechanics or programming of it might be easier if the builder stops.

An upgrade to a unit is internal and there is no inherent reason for it to stop moving (unless it uses all its power for the upgrade and/or the process is too delicate for movement and impacts). Of course, we can rationalize any reasons we like but the true yardstick is the effect on gameplay as Farmletje wrote. In turn, people will have different opinions about which design choices lead to best gameplay. I have no problems if FAF stays the way it is on this matter. I'm simply considering something a bit different for a mod.

The ACU is a rather paradoxical unit. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. It helps to give FA and FAF their particular "flavor" as an RTS. By "paradoxical" I mean it acts like say a combined King and Queen from chess. It is both the strongest unit (until T4 anyway) and yet the key vulnerability. Lose it and you lose the game.

I am considering a test mod which both reduces offensive power of the ACU and yet reduces its vulnerability to snipes. These are somewhat opposite requirements so it might be tricky to get the ideas right. People might hate such a mod. That's fine they don't need to use it and it's only a learning exercise anyway.

At the same time, the ACU will still require some offensive/defensive power and some vulnerability to snipes. So it's a matter of degree, not a matter of crude changes (like doubling its health points and nerfing its weapon). It's the unbalance of the ACU early on small 5x5 maps that is particularly an issue IMO. But its buffing up and regen with kill veterancy also seems excessive to me.

I've even considered having the ACU arrive with no walking ability and requiring a first upgrade (not too expensive) to be able to walk. This would tie it down early and the first expansions and battles would be done with the handling of tier 1 armies, air forces and navies.

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 15 Oct 2018, 01:55

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T11:06:39+02:00

Crazy Cossack wrote:
Now, a new question. Why can't an ACU walk and chew gum at the same time? Of course, I mean why can't it upgrade while walking? It can regenerate while walking, after all. I don't expect this to be changed in FAF (though I think it would be a nice change). People probably like it just the way it is in FAF. However, it is food for thought for a mod.

Dunno, why do engineers stop to build buildings?

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 14 Oct 2018, 11:06

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T04:59:14+02:00

You mean mods that defy logic even more than regular faf gameplay?

Anyway i'm talking from a game balance perspective, not about what some random dudes might or might not like.

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 14 Oct 2018, 04:59

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T02:04:21+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
Gameplay is more important than logic

Yes... and no. It depends what kind of gameplay the designers and players want. FAF gives one kind of gameplay and it is popular. But if everyone wanted exactly that form of gameplay every game then they would play no mods. It is possible to use logic (there are many logics depending on initial assumptions) to get the style of gameplay that a modder wants. However, whether other players want that style is always a debatable point.

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 14 Oct 2018, 02:04

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T00:30:28+02:00

Gameplay is more important than logic

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 14 Oct 2018, 00:30

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T00:28:17+02:00

Making yourself vulernable on the short term for long term gains is a tradeoff for getting an upgrade. Losing eco when being forced to cancel and not being able to move are significant parts of the game.

You can also already move while upgrading, technically. It’s just considered an exploit that gets you banned if you get caught doing it purposefully.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 14 Oct 2018, 00:28

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-14T00:29:21+02:00

Now, a new question. Why can't an ACU walk and chew gum at the same time? Of course, I mean why can't it upgrade while walking? It can regenerate while walking, after all. I don't expect this to be changed in FAF (though I think it would be a nice change). People probably like it just the way it is in FAF. However, it is food for thought for a mod. There are a few possible permutations on this;

(a) An ACU can walk while upgrading;
(b) An ACU can walk while upgrade is paused;
(c) An ACU can stop an upgrade to walk and get the resources back (or some % like 80% or 50%) if the storage is available for it of course.

What do people think, for a mod if not for FAF?

Note: On the ACU side of a possible mod (I am still learning LUA coding), I am considering changing the ACUs in two ways. On the one hand, I want to make ACUs of less use militarily in the early game. In other words, T1 units would rule even small maps a bit more and ACUs would be more about building and home base defense early on. At the same time, I want to make ACUs less snipe-able. Of course, they could still be of some military use early and they still could be snipe-able any time, just not as much so in each case.

ACUs are OP early (IMHO) and become less OP against large masses of T1, and then T2 and T3. Although gun, overcharge and other upgrades can keep them matching higher techs. High regens and levelling up (buffing up) can turn ACUs into total beasts. This is a all little excessive IMHO but I accept it in FAF. A mod can change up things however.

At the same time, ACUs are strangely vulnerable to certain rock, paper, scissors tactics. I can't really accept (for example) that a platform like an ACU should lack AA. It could be given one AA weapon at its tech level or (like in lab wars) enable the main weapon to hit air.

These a re just a few thoughts. Erm, let the flames being!

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 14 Oct 2018, 00:10

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T22:13:00+02:00

Thanks Hildegard, that clarified it for me. It was the large optical vision of ACU and the fact that it is the same range as omni which was causing my confusion.

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 12 Oct 2018, 22:13

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T14:17:43+02:00

There's 2 different visions, and 2 different protection mechanisms from being visible.

Optical (physical) vision, and radar vision.

Anything outside of both optical and radar vision is automatically invisible.

Stealth makes you invisible in radar vision if optical is not present.

Cloak makes you invisible in optical vision, but it will be detected in radar. However, radar will not reveal the target.

Omni vision will detect everything as radar targets within its radar vision regardless of stealth, and it will also reveal any cloaked unit inside optical vision (ie. if a land area you have covered with optical vision is also within the omni radius, any cloaked units will be revealed there.)

ACU's have omni vision (marked by red circle in selection). This is radar+omni at the same time, and happens to be also the optical vision range of ACU, which means that within its sight, an ACU will detect absolutely everything, and nothing can deceive it, be it stealthed or cloaked.

Statistics: Posted by Hildegard — 12 Oct 2018, 14:17

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T12:54:17+02:00

Thanks for replies.

(a) I think Regen consistently should cost but if it's not in FAF then someone can put it in a mod... maybe even me.

(b) I think I have misunderstood what an omini is. I thought an omni came with radar inbuilt. What does an omni on its own do? I guess reveal cloaking and stealth but that a radar is still needed to see the stealth?

(c) Anihilnine is right about the "drag rightclick to preview where the acu will be". That's what I meant. It's a very minor issue I know.

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 12 Oct 2018, 12:54

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T09:14:50+02:00

1) i wouldnt like that - seems unimportant but would be annoying. However yes strictly speaking I can see that based on the rest of the universe it would be consistent
2) acus have a tiny omni (thin dark red circle)
3) i assume you mean when you drag rightclick to preview where acu will be when you release the mouse button, it shows a preview of the upgraded acu even if acu is not upgraded. My answer is I've never seen that and I guess it is an unimportant bug

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 12 Oct 2018, 09:14

Re: A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T08:07:54+02:00

1) no it shouldn't
2) they have an omni, it is on purpose
3) i don't see what you mean

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 12 Oct 2018, 08:07

A Few Question about ACUs

2018-10-12T07:18:40+02:00

Of course, these questions refer specifically to FAF ACUs. Some issues are significant I think and some are probably of little real impact on play.

(1) When the ACU regens health this costs no mass or energy. Same with T4s, I guess? Shouldn't a regen of health cost resources like a repair?

(2) Why does the ACU's list of attributes say it has an Omni when it has none? Or is there something I am not understanding here.

(3) Why does the yellow align-in-a-new-spot "marker-shadow" of the basic ACU show it with an upgraded gun (at least for the UEF ACU anyway)? This is frivolous I know.

Statistics: Posted by Crazy Cossack — 12 Oct 2018, 07:18