Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-29T02:10:18+02:00

Ah i didn't know about that. It's kind of weird it isn't auto enabled though

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 29 Feb 2020, 02:10

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-29T00:58:51+02:00

question is, is it off by default, to force most people to see the news ?

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 29 Feb 2020, 00:58

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-28T23:42:06+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
Meanwhile right now if you start up the java client it won't even default to the news tab. It will just open the last tab you were on before you closed the client [...]

You can turn that off:

I agree that the Java client needs to be improved a lot though, it's still lacking features I frequently used from the Python client.
Also, I guess having a news page more focused on competitive play and rewarding players with mentions on there could give incentive for people to play that more.

Statistics: Posted by FemtoZetta — 28 Feb 2020, 23:42

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-28T19:33:56+02:00

I do agree with the news tab looking very bad right now. Not only is it infested with nomads dev diaries being 50% of the news but it's also structured pretty poorly with not a lot of interesting things going on.

The old layout was maybe pretty bad looking but atleast you could find information there. Latest casts, top players, some stats, etc.
Meanwhile right now if you start up the java client it won't even default to the news tab. It will just open the last tab you were on before you closed the client so the little bit of info you could get from the news tab isn't even fully exposed.

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 28 Feb 2020, 19:33

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-28T02:21:48+02:00

Sure.
Feel free to make a new topic if you want to continue, Zematus.
I'm not going to shit up this thread to respond to such low quality bait.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 111210.png

Statistics: Posted by biass — 28 Feb 2020, 02:21

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-28T01:25:34+02:00

As it seems to be an argument between you two guys, can you take it to somewhere else ?

As for people being too focus on the rating, we are trying to figure out a way to hide the rating while still allowing people to correctly balance their game. So work is being done on side.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 28 Feb 2020, 01:25

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-27T21:50:52+02:00

biass wrote:
We actively attempt to get players to not care about their rating and care more about their level of skill.
However thus, we mention true-skill rating as after many games, it's an easy way to refer to a player's level of skill at a glance. You were damaging the growth of other players by giving players false information and thus your rating/level of skill (as a qualification) was called into question. The pointy wointys have nothing to do with it.

I'm going to have to call bs on that for the simple reason of your clear obsession with ratings in nearly every rant you have. This statement wasn't only about you, but your clear influence on others in thinking the same way in where they can't get beyond the ratings climb and just enjoy the games they're playing. They complain about maps they're weak in and delight when they get matched with 0 rated or new players, considering that an easy gain.

If I say a t1 air factory uses 120 power, it's not necessarily untrue. The best retort would be to correct me that that would be the case if the factory is making a transport with zero adjacency. Instead you slide into your typical ad hominem and, predictably, trash talk my rating. Whatever justification you have, your meme addiction follows the pattern of your view of what you consider blase newb inquiries. As a trainer, if you lack the patience to constantly repeat yourself, maybe you should not be a trainer.

biass wrote:
If this is the conclusion you gained after reflecting on your own actions in the training chat, i'm pretty confident in claiming that we do not want people like you in here.

I don't think I need to say anything more than what I've already said about this kind of attitude. Are you saying I should take my patreon contributions and leave? You are clearly blind to what I've been trying to say and fail tragically at even the slightest attempt at being diplomatic and lacking any tact that would at least help you come out of a confrontation with me looking good as a figure in leadership.

Statistics: Posted by Zematus — 27 Feb 2020, 21:50

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-27T07:28:40+02:00

Zematus wrote:
In closing. I would like to remark on the current view of how rating is perceived in the Discord.

If this doesn't mean me, neither does the term "biass" so i'll take the bait and write a response.
I don't feel the need to justify my words but I wanted to clear some things up.

Zematus wrote:
There seems to be a lot of hostility on rating that is termed 'bad' or 'good'

We actively attempt to get players to not care about their rating and care more about their level of skill.
However thus, we mention true-skill rating as after many games, it's an easy way to refer to a player's level of skill at a glance. You were damaging the growth of other players by giving players false information and thus your rating/level of skill (as a qualification) was called into question. The pointy wointys have nothing to do with it.

Zematus wrote:
with extremely negative impressions on players that plateau at a certain rating and stay there.

What were you expecting from a training channel? A complete volunteer team isn't going to want to waste time on players that cannot gain skill from their assistance. No matter if it's because you're not playing, don't care, or are too busying trying to argue with people..

Zematus wrote:
What does it matter if a player cannot rise above a certain rating? Is this really as earth-shattering and tragic as it's made out to be?

After spending hundreds of hours teaching someone to make a map, after countless hours of pointless arguing and giving review, they are no better at making maps. Is that an annoyance? of course. There are only so many good mappers and hundreds of new mappers that could benefit more, or become the very next "good mapper." As is the point of the hypothetical mapping help channel. If you're not there to get better at making maps in the mapping help channel, why are you there?

Zematus wrote:
I would like you all to consider this seriously and help curve that idiotic atmosphere of elitism and rating worship.

If this is the conclusion you gained after reflecting on your own actions in the training chat, i'm pretty confident in claiming that we do not want people like you in here. Continue to play the game however you please, but please don't waste the limited hours of my fellow trainers if you're too busy trying to argue instead of trying to get better at the game. And definitely do not harm the growth of other players too, thanks.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 27 Feb 2020, 07:28

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-27T05:20:09+02:00

Hello everyone. I'd like to comment on my initial impressions as a new member of the community, general feedback of introductory information, accessibility and a few thoughts on the environment and overall awareness as a supporter.

When I first re-joined the community it was through a general search on Youtube for some old user made videos on Supreme Commander I had seen a long while back. This in turn brought up some recent SupCom content on the feed and it was the activity of the casters (Gyle in this case) which brought awareness of the ongoing FAF community that was still alive. I downloaded the client, the updates, and did my best to catch up on the recent balance changes and current meta. As a player transitioning from Eve Online to something else, I naturally am an addict of stats and charts. This information gathering actually gives me as much pleasure as playing the game, much in the heart of how I played Eve. I'm a part time player at best, even as I was in Eve, so 4-5 ladder games a week is just right for me.

My initial impressions on the client were anemic at best. I do wish the welcoming page of the client would show
*a curated selection of maybe 5 forum posts where more feedback is desired from the general player base.
*5 most recent ladder replays of players 1600+
*3 of the most recent content from casters/steamers
*map of the month
*list of top 5 players
*Current or upcoming tournaments as the headline
*Link to the Patreon with encouragement to start a small monthly donation to support the project.

All of this could serve as a hub where anyone can update themselves in a brief moment and feel like they are in touch with current evnts.

I wish there was a 1v1 global queue with the option to disregard rank, and which would feature ONLY this map of the month. If the map turns out to be good, it could take the place of one of the ladder maps, potentially sifting maps before they are introduced to the ladder scene as they are now, avoiding how some people feel ambushed by new unknown maps. This could possibly have a positive effect on current global ratings. Encourage map makers to have their content endorsed. Provide an arena outside of ranked ladder to dust off after some time away.

In closing. I would like to remark on the current view of how rating is perceived in the Discord. There seems to be a lot of hostility on rating that is termed 'bad' or 'good', with extremely negative impressions on players that plateau at a certain rating and stay there. It's repeated often enough to notice that these small-brain shitters don't seem to comprehend how bad this is for the community on a whole. What does it matter if a player cannot rise above a certain rating? Is this really as earth-shattering and tragic as it's made out to be? The impression given is that it is pointless to go on if you hit that wall. Is that really the message you want to stand by if you hope to continue to grow as a community? Is there any wonder at all that people drop off the map in activity early on?

I can tell you that I have far to go in my own improvement and what I have to learn. I'm completely fine with all that. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I continue to be a Patreon and if I'm too tired after work, I'm more than satisfied to sit down and watch a replay instead of playing, or watch a cast here or there. In fact, I delight in the tournament replays so much that I would gladly contribute if all I did was watch these great players compete on that level I may never reach. I would like you all to consider this seriously and help curve that idiotic atmosphere of elitism and rating worship. For not all players are young and many lack the reactions or reflexes to ever rise very high--but have plenty of RL funds to help sustain a little hobby like this, to see it continue and prosper and play a game or two here and there with fellow shitters that have hit a plateau as they have. It costs you nothing to have a player as a gate keeper of a certain rating. It benefits you nothing to ridicule them to the point of alienating them. I would, on top of this, suggest that the top rated player receive a monthly monetary reward for being the best of the best. That rating should deteriorate 10 points with each month of inactivity, if for nothing else than to populate the vault with high quality replays.

Thank you for listening.

Statistics: Posted by Zematus — 27 Feb 2020, 05:20

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-21T07:05:55+02:00

keyser wrote:
JaggedAppliance wrote:Requiring at least 5 or 10 ladder games in a year is fine imo, requiring only one game is something that can be abused. I know that Luxy has played a single game just to have his name reappear on the leaderboards in the past and he hasn't been a relevant player for years.

Well that happened once, not sure if it's that relevant. Real question is what is the point of the ladder leaderboard ? If it's to see which player are relevant to ladder, then i shouldn't appear on it, since as for now, I am not interested in playing ladder (and same apply zock). If it's to see which are the top players in 1v1, then having Zock and I in the leaderboard is relevant, i can't say about Zock, but i would rate myself ~15 rank in leaderboard (and ~10 rank if I unrust).

It is to see the top players in 1v1. The question is when we want to determine a person is functionally irrelevant for that question. I don’t think Zock is relevant in a question on top 1v1 players because he isn’t a 1v1 player or a top player after 3 years of afk 4head. He WAS for sure but how far are we willing to take this logic of a perpetual leaderboard? Shall we include TLO? Sir_Loui? They were top active players, now they aren’t, so they are removed. Yes, I understand GPG and FAF leaderboards are different, but the point of the example still holds.

I think removing people after a year (maybe 1.5 years with a sigma increase system) is fair game, as they progressively fail to play for said time period, they would get a sigma increase lowering their position on the leaderboard. I imagine 10 sigma increase per month of inactivity, with a cap at 200. This would put a 2300 at roughly 1800 shown rating. They should get back to 2300 after say 4 wins in a row. The cap is built on the assumption that players have a 80ish sigma already, which seems fair based on what I see on FAF.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 21 Feb 2020, 07:05

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-19T23:25:39+02:00

Yeah you're right that we need to know what the point of that leaderboard is. For me, for now, the point is recognition for the best active players, so they are rewarded for their achievements on the matchmaker. The league system has not overtaken the old leaderboards in terms of relevance because of a lack of visibility and also the fact that it is not actually a very good ranking system.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 19 Feb 2020, 23:25

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-19T23:11:00+02:00

JaggedAppliance wrote:
Requiring at least 5 or 10 ladder games in a year is fine imo, requiring only one game is something that can be abused. I know that Luxy has played a single game just to have his name reappear on the leaderboards in the past and he hasn't been a relevant player for years.

Well that happened once, not sure if it's that relevant. Real question is what is the point of the ladder leaderboard ? If it's to see which player are relevant to ladder, then i shouldn't appear on it, since as for now, I am not interested in playing ladder (and same apply zock). If it's to see which are the top players in 1v1, then having Zock and I in the leaderboard is relevant, i can't say about Zock, but i would rate myself ~15 rank in leaderboard (and ~10 rank if I unrust).

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 19 Feb 2020, 23:11

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-19T21:04:26+02:00

Requiring at least 5 or 10 ladder games in a year is fine imo, requiring only one game is something that can be abused. I know that Luxy has played a single game just to have his name reappear on the leaderboards in the past and he hasn't been a relevant player for years.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 19 Feb 2020, 21:04

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-19T20:52:57+02:00

Your requirement already fails just looking at the example of Blackheart or Petric. Blackheart comes back from being afk for 3 years, wins 10/11 ladder games. Petric can do the same when he plays his yearly splurge of games. You want none of the "top 3" golden standard on the leaderboard? Your leaderboard is garbage. End of discussion really. If we have people worse than them regularly able to compete against them on ladder, I would feel must safer in adding more strenuous restrictions on ladder activity requirements. However, I'm not seeing it happen so a yearly restriction seems like the best position to hold to synergize accuracy with activity.

Zock is an anomaly credit to a small map pool that extremely favored his playstyle and farming rusty mephi + petric on it. Same factors can be attributed to keyser's rating. I am quite certain if Zock came back and that in turn gave Petric motivation to play ladder, he would very quickly fall to 2300 or even 2200.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 19 Feb 2020, 20:52

Re: Why FAF competitive scene is dying

2020-02-19T20:47:20+02:00

You make a good point that someone can be "relevant" to the community even if they are away for more than 6 months.

I think the point is, for a 12-month window of time, requiring only a single ladder match is not enough.

At this point, if Zock came back to play a single two-minute ladder match tomorrow (oops my BO is bad time to ctrl-k), he would get to be #1 on the leaderboard until Feb 19, 2021? If he did that once every 12 months, Blodir wouldn't catch up to him until 2028.

If the window if time is to be 12 months, then at least 12 ladder matches should be required, probably a lot more.

A 15- or 18-month window would be fine, as long as a sufficient number of games were required. It's not hard to play 30 ladder matches in an 18-month time window.

Statistics: Posted by armacham01 — 19 Feb 2020, 20:47