Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-08T17:46:45+02:00

No he made it make telemazer

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 08 Feb 2018, 17:46

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-08T13:27:15+02:00

Did he make it spam corsairs

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 08 Feb 2018, 13:27

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-08T12:26:31+02:00

The sole mistake of the UI was just to put a single button in for something that has a variety of different actions to it without enabling the player to restrict unit behaviour in such a way that it can be predefined what actions the unit is actually allowed to perform. So while I can order combat units to attack regularly, ground fire or hold fire there's no such behaviour fine-tuning for the variety of options engineers and repair stations offer. I can't restrict them to only reclaim, only repair units, only assist construction etc. or a selection of these settings. None of that is possible. And that's what I'd like to define: Out of the list of this, this, this, you're allowed to do this, not that, this. Really simple actually.

That's not really somethin you could change on the fly so easily, it might be possible, but I don't see any simple solution for this.

Additional convenience would be nice, like the engineer reclaim example: Mass storage full means to stop all reclaim orders on engineers. Doing so deletes all their reclaim paths, mass empty enough means having to reassign the same all over again. That's just repetition. Nothing to glorify or that enhances the gameplay. So if engineers would check the storage themselves and adjust their reclaim speed down to 0, if necessary and only as long as necessary, that'd add a whole less of a hassle and actually improve the gameplay.

This is also controlled by the engine and we can't change this behaviour. The only thing I can suggest is to manage your economy better to not have a full mass bar, since that tends to lose games.

AI being stupid:
Ofc the AI can't think on it's own, that's why it IS stupid, yet the challenge is there as the AI has omnipresence, enabling it to control all units and react to all intel, if it's made to. It doesn't understand any core concepts of the game and merely follows attack- and build orders but if these are designed well, taking certain human actions into consideration you end up with a challenging AI. Once it starts to become challenging the AI may be stupid as it is but yet still provide a challenge and the entertainment I'm looking for, so it's not beneath me.

AI is something that can still be improved a lot, it just takes quite a lot of time and someone who knows what he's doing.
For example Uveso is making his own AI and it's already able to beat Sorian.

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 08 Feb 2018, 12:26

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T11:34:32+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
Idontknowman wrote:And I've not yet encountered a mod that uses a tech tree like it's been the case in most other strategy games.

Probably because this game is not built around tech trees. If you want that, go play SupCom2. The closest that exists to that is some RPG mod that is in development that lets you choose unit upgrades as it "levels up." I don't know how that's coming along or if it's been released already, though.

It's out and can be tested ! Tech trees and faction customizations with picks are on my to do list ! Click on the link on my signature to download and test the mod ! Any feedback will be nice.

Statistics: Posted by Franck83 — 07 Feb 2018, 11:34

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T10:41:41+02:00

making assumptions about another that are treated like facts, trying to make the other one look as bad as possible, taking things out of context or claiming things have been said that haven't been said and all that other shit.
And maybe I'm too old for this but there used to be other times where people actually shared things and made interesting posts and didn't just try to stomp another in posts.

Idontknowman wrote:
Quite frankly I'm also tired of this personal insults shit. Best thing you can do to create an echo chamber is to make sure other people don't feel welcome or generally stfu.

I understand it's difficult to keep track of your moral compass when you get lost in the moment, but you cannot claim to be a paladin of justice towards something you don't like and then do that same thing literally every time you type offhand, that's not how it works.

About your.. idea?
As much as this is a null response I do suggest you learn about a few more things before trying to propose this giant rework of all these systems, for example with your selection idea, you often can find things like all of your power generators by finding a power generator and double clicking it.
It's clear you're either very new or have yet to memorise basic elements such as the range rings but when you get further down the point you'll understand why a thing was done this way.
It'll also clear up some ideas in your head about ""game design"", for example your tech population cost idea, if a T3 unit was worth 12 T1 (a t1 unit is worth 1) then a coop player with a basic unit cap of 250 would be able to field 19 T3 units, and nothing else.

PS: A unit not working wouldn't be the fault of the game designers, but someone in the asset/code creation. Don't slander.
PPS: the main culprit of your "american style of talking" is from New Zealand, don't make assumptions about each other to make them look bad,

Statistics: Posted by biass — 07 Feb 2018, 10:41

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T10:20:20+02:00

This is gold

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 07 Feb 2018, 10:20

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T09:31:06+02:00

I watched a youtube video of one that was won solely because bug abuse took place.

And I once watched a youtube video where a guy won a video game solely because a bug took place, in fact I watched several of these, in fact there is an entire e-sport based around exploiting a game's mechanics in solo play yet you have no issue playing games while it still exists.
Also what FTX said.

That entire thing you just wrote

I look forward to 'Idontknowedit' coming out in 2020

It would be but that's not what I said. And in terms of AI their role is to be overcome. D'uh. Challenge -> beat the challenge. Entertainment along the way if it was fun to play it that way, bonus points on good story / map design. PVP is cancer to games. It attracts all the rude people that play to boost their ego, not because the game itself is fun to them. It's where people start to abuse things in the game or blatantly hack to gain an advantage. In the early times there's always the good community that likes the game and plays well with another, that then leaves / stops playing and then the remaining people just treat another like shit because they only play for the win, not for a good match, not with mutual respect or some manners. That's why I'd never support a PVP community unless they actually realize themselves as a community and treat another like one, not like hostiles.

I don't like that american way of talking eveywhere these days: Throwing opinions against another, making assumptions about another that are treated like facts, trying to make the other one look as bad as possible, taking things out of context or claiming things have been said that haven't been said and all that other shit.

And maybe I'm too old for this but there used to be other times where people actually shared things and made interesting posts and didn't just try to stomp another in posts.

Opinion.jpg

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 07 Feb 2018, 09:31

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T09:17:36+02:00

I think you and I both know this thread was focused on multiplayer. I’m sure you’re aware like none of those ideas are remotely feasible for FAF multiplayer so why bother posting them here rather than a thread in the mod forums?

(stop micro isn’t a bug, it’s micro)

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 07 Feb 2018, 09:17

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T08:58:12+02:00

I guess that means I'm going to be seeing you around here a lot, huh?

No. I'm mostly playing the solo stuff because there the game has vastly more potential than in the human vs human matches. I watched a youtube video of one that was won solely because bug abuse took place. That's not a condition I want to play my matches on. I don't know if that's still possible but it was about abusing the stop order to make attacks and turns like they'd not be possible by the experimental bomber if left alone to act on it's own.

I think in good scenario design the game has more potential than in PVP as many more interesting situations can be created, along with story to that.

That's why I'd never mod the game towards PVP but towards faction identity.
I'd also change the unit population costs so that one T3 costs population equal to 12 T1 or 4 T2 (with a little up and down tinkering, depending on role, costs and combat / utility potential) etc. so that experimentals really cost some population instead of just 1, add AI nodes that can be constructed and help increasing the population cap (but drain a lot of energy), experience ranks enabling individual upgrades on units (like a T2 UEF Cruiser swapping it's ballistic missiles for some with a scatter effect upon impact -or- instead upgrading their SAM launcher to not detonate the missiles once an air target was shot down but instead lock-on to the nearest other hostile air unit etc. so that a 5/5 T1 unit may even be a threat to a T2 unit, if well upgraded; I hope upgrading on the move would be possible somehow, though).

I'd also rebalance that whole mass & energy storage stuff so that it's actually relevant to have certain storage units elsewhere than around mass / energy producing structures that can be valueable targets.

Mass nodes would be at least 10 times more beneficial than they're currently to have something worth to fight over. The major problem of the game currently is that it's too much about economy. So actual strategy needs a buff. Shields prevent actual siege attacks and stop advancement of units easily if they're protecting defenses, so the next logical thing would be to nerf shields.

Shields would be luxury and very expensive to power so that they'd sometimes need to be taken offline to power other shields elsewhere.

I'd also change radars: Instead of a T3 radar with a huge range have many single radars with a much lower range (a bit less than current T2 radar), so that sneaking up would be easier without stealth (aka for all factions) if scouting is lacking. Eventually I'd also introduce a T2 version of the land scout. Adjacency bonus would be reworked to have many different effects, not just eco benefits. No radar would ever have omni, I'd rather have a seperate structure solely for omni coverage that's very expensive to power and benefits greatly from a T3 power plant, so it's most likely found adjacent to one and some other stuff. But unlike the current game I'd add all the relevant adjacency bonus to the actual tooltip instead of listing actual values nowhere ever, as it's currently the case in the game.

And add some other useful stuff, like showing range circles around enemy artillery structures, anti nuke silos, radars, etc., once spotted to know up to which point units are out of range.

Oh and almost forgot: If it'd be anyhow possible I'd extend the amount of units a T2 factory can produce in one go to 2 T1 units at once and for a T3 factory to up to 4 T1 units at once or 2 T2 units at once. So spamming units that die more easily is possible more easily.

And that's the reason I've not started. I looked at the code and oh boy, is this a lot.
Not to mention the balance and error testing after that. I mean: even the actual game designers fucked up with the UEF Neptune that needed a patch to be able to actually hit any targets. There's just so much that'd need testing.

What I don't seem to get is how you seem to know the existence of all the solutions and work around that the tens of thousands of people before you used to remedy and circumvent these 'issues' and still manage to mess up.

Opinion.jpg

If the human it is versing is an idiot, it is a challenge

It would be but that's not what I said. And in terms of AI their role is to be overcome. D'uh. Challenge -> beat the challenge. Entertainment along the way if it was fun to play it that way, bonus points on good story / map design. PVP is cancer to games. It attracts all the rude people that play to boost their ego, not because the game itself is fun to them. It's where people start to abuse things in the game or blatantly hack to gain an advantage. In the early times there's always the good community that likes the game and plays well with another, that then leaves / stops playing and then the remaining people just treat another like shit because they only play for the win, not for a good match, not with mutual respect or some manners. That's why I'd never support a PVP community unless they actually realize themselves as a community and treat another like one, not like hostiles.

I don't like that american way of talking eveywhere these days: Throwing opinions against another, making assumptions about another that are treated like facts, trying to make the other one look as bad as possible, taking things out of context or claiming things have been said that haven't been said and all that other shit.

And maybe I'm too old for this but there used to be other times where people actually shared things and made interesting posts and didn't just try to stomp another in posts.

Statistics: Posted by Idontknowman — 07 Feb 2018, 08:58

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T02:16:54+02:00

I'm just too lazy right now (and probably for some time) to start all the work and testing to get this thing running.

I guess that means I'm going to be seeing you around here a lot, huh?

That's what you don't seem to get despite me listing numerous examples and detailing what, how and why.

What I don't seem to get is how you seem to know the existence of all the solutions and work around that the tens of thousands of people before you used to remedy and circumvent these 'issues' and still manage to mess up.

The colors example:
Fine, change the text from
"To have the colors viewed there you'll need to opt in for every single setting."
to
"To have ALL the colors viewed there you'll need to opt in for every single setting."

To see everything you have to want to see everything? I'll alert the media.

Still irrelevant, as I asked to add the color info to the unit tooltip that contains the intel and weapon data.

taking certain human actions into consideration you end up with a challenging AI.

If the human it is versing is an idiot, it is a challenge

Btw: What's wrong with the Equilibrium mod ?

Nothing, nothing at all. When did I say anything against benevolent and holy EQ mod?

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 07 Feb 2018, 02:16

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-07T02:02:40+02:00

Idontknowman wrote:
People get better (necessary and happening anyway, naturally)

Oh, if only that would happen.

Idontknowman wrote:
The sole mistake of the UI was just to put a single button in for something that has a variety of different actions to it without enabling the player to restrict unit behaviour in such a way that it can be predefined what actions the unit is actually allowed to perform. So while I can order combat units to attack regularly, ground fire or hold fire there's no such behaviour fine-tuning for the variety of options engineers and repair stations offer. I can't restrict them to only reclaim, only repair units, only assist construction etc. or a selection of these settings. None of that is possible. And that's what I'd like to define: Out of the list of this, this, this, you're allowed to do this, not that, this. Really simple actually.

I mean, I guess this is nice? I have never been in a situation in my 2000 games where I went "damn, I wish my engineers were only repairing my units" or "damn, i wish they would just assist construction." In my eyes, this is just added complexity that serves no real purpose in game. I think the only time I've had an engineer on attack move do something I didn't expect it to do was when it would reclaim enemy engineers/scouts automatically. But even then, I'm glad it did it for me.

Idontknowman wrote:
Additional convenience would be nice, like the engineer reclaim example: Mass storage full means to stop all reclaim orders on engineers. Doing so deletes all their reclaim paths, mass empty enough means having to reassign the same all over again. That's just repetition. Nothing to glorify or that enhances the gameplay. So if engineers would check the storage themselves and adjust their reclaim speed down to 0, if necessary and only as long as necessary, that'd add a whole less of a hassle and actually improve the gameplay.

No. That's called "Balance your eco or pay the cost of losing additional attack move range + APM cost." There is no improved gameplay here. This is just removing the cost of playing poorly. Most competent players are not going to be in a situation where they lose reclaim orders unless it's a 3x adaptive reclaim map and they are not used to dealing with diseased reclaim numbers. You should be improving your gameplay.

Idontknowman wrote:
Btw: What's wrong with the Equilibrium mod ? I really liked how they adressed the issue with the Fatboy now being able to construct units while moving, only tested it three times so far on campaign missions though. I also liked it more that T3 mass fabs cost 3500 energy while active, promoting to advance and actually capture mass nodes on the map opposed to sitting in a base and just generating all resources there with only 1000 energy costing T3 mass fabs in the regular FAF like game.

Mass fabs do not encourage turtling. They are significantly more mass inefficient than any mex. Map control is extremely important in FAF and I don't understand how you could develop the idea that -3500 constant e is a reasonable cost for like +16 mass (used to be +12). The mod you were playing had the old mass fab costs (it used to be -3500) and all that led to was everyone regarding t3 mass fabs as trash-tier units that are not worth the build icon they take up. It was reduced to -1500 JUST TO MAKE IT REASONABLY COMPETITIVE with t2 mass fabs (AND THAT STILL REQUIRED A +4 BOOST TO MASS GENERATION).

Idontknowman wrote:
I just feel that all game versions I've played so far allow to rush tech levels too fast.

This is what the next patch is trying to address.

Idontknowman wrote:
And I've not yet encountered a mod that uses a tech tree like it's been the case in most other strategy games.

Probably because this game is not built around tech trees. If you want that, go play SupCom2. The closest that exists to that is some RPG mod that is in development that lets you choose unit upgrades as it "levels up." I don't know how that's coming along or if it's been released already, though.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 07 Feb 2018, 02:02

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-06T22:15:28+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
hmmm well im glad you liked the mod but in eq mass fabs drain 1500e/s not 3500

are you sure you were running the right version? you should be playing the featured mod version, but for things like coop the latest version in the vault is Equilibrium_Beta V59

*sigh*
You're right, sorry. I confused that value with one of another mod I tested that day, most likely it's Total Mayhem. But I really liked your Fatboy factory solution that allows the Fatboy to produce units while on the move. A very good solution. Solely the long unload time for constructed units remains, that no game version I've played so far has reduced and that really gets in the way with the Fatboy's continuous unit production.

Still, as stated, the 3500 energy drain on mass fabs were an interesting concept to me, whatever mod they came from that day. It really made mass nodes more attractive to fight over, even when trying to construct energy efficient with T3 power plants and T3 mass fabs in an efficient pattern.

Just playing again made me realize how much of an improvement FAF's UI is: It allows upgrading multiple SACUs simultaneously, it allows to upgrade structures with multiple upgrade stages to be single-click upgraded to the desired tech level and it shows some more information than the regular non-FAF UI.

I just feel that all game versions I've played so far allow to rush tech levels too fast. And I've not yet encountered a mod that uses a tech tree like it's been the case in most other strategy games. Neither one that counts units differently so that a huge experimental doesn't just count as 1 unit, the same as a small T1 unit but that units have cap costs depending no their combat roles and price towards potential value in general.

Statistics: Posted by Idontknowman — 06 Feb 2018, 22:15

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-06T19:47:04+02:00

hmmm well im glad you liked the mod but in eq mass fabs drain 1500e/s not 3500

are you sure you were running the right version? you should be playing the featured mod version, but for things like coop the latest version in the vault is Equilibrium_Beta V59

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 06 Feb 2018, 19:47

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-06T18:54:36+02:00

dota has literally one map and it is perfectly fine. Your opinions on map selection and their legitimacy are simply invalid and I don't want to bother actually typing out why.

The problems for noobs that even I can see when playing low rated gaps and setons are smurfing way below your level and this absolutely bad rating system for low game players. In dota they force you to give your phone number just to deter smurfing. And really if faf wants to have smurfs then at least keep it at 1 maximum.

Statistics: Posted by Feather — 06 Feb 2018, 18:54

Re: Welcome new players... not really

2018-02-06T18:21:18+02:00

Well you will need to write a mod for the UI list. A lot is possible. Same for more intelligent engineers.

For multiple artillery can you not use spread attack or is that not giving you the functionality you are looking for?

Whilst I agree it would be nice to have a better and more intelligent UI I think in practice there is so much going on in a competitive game that you wouldn't have time for that. In any case FAF's UI is still a lot better than almost any other RTS I've played. Sounds like you might prefer a turn based strategy game if you want to be able to control everything perfectly. Learning to use your limited APM most effectively is the biggest challenge in any RTS I would say.

UI party eControl or Supreme Economy mods may help you out. Hussar may also be working on something. You can also use Ecomanager with throttling or write your own mod to do that. It might teach you bad habits though.

I know that it'll most likely force an UI mod. I'm just too lazy right now (and probably for some time) to start all the work and testing to get this thing running.

I already checked the vault mods some time ago but what is there is simply not covering what I want.

For artillery the intention has never been about any spreaded attack but sequential attacking. That on the other hand requires a lot of data I doubt the game is capable of handling in it's LUA. Nevertheless it'd be a nice to have in a future game.

I know that a strategy game is about making and cutting decisions once too many units hit the field and too many things start happening. That's not the issue. The issue is to avoid blatant unit stupidity (sub commander example), repetitive orders (reclaiming engineers & their paths example) and units doing unintended stuff, which is the case because a single order may cover a variety of different unit behaviours on engineers, yet I can't select which actions an engineering unit should and shouldn't be allowed to perform, which may lead to unintended actions.

I don't want my structures to be managed to automatically turn on off or have upgrading automatized. This is merely about engineering units related settings and some other ideas that are related to something completley different.

-----

@moonbearonmeth
How about both:
People get better (necessary and happening anyway, naturally) and the game gets better too.
And no: I don't expect the game to set up everything perfectly in all situations but instead to BE ABLE to set up certain behaviour rules opposed to NOT BE ABLE to set up certain behaviour rules.
That's what you don't seem to get despite me listing numerous examples and detailing what, how and why.

The sole mistake of the UI was just to put a single button in for something that has a variety of different actions to it without enabling the player to restrict unit behaviour in such a way that it can be predefined what actions the unit is actually allowed to perform. So while I can order combat units to attack regularly, ground fire or hold fire there's no such behaviour fine-tuning for the variety of options engineers and repair stations offer. I can't restrict them to only reclaim, only repair units, only assist construction etc. or a selection of these settings. None of that is possible. And that's what I'd like to define: Out of the list of this, this, this, you're allowed to do this, not that, this. Really simple actually.

Additional convenience would be nice, like the engineer reclaim example: Mass storage full means to stop all reclaim orders on engineers. Doing so deletes all their reclaim paths, mass empty enough means having to reassign the same all over again. That's just repetition. Nothing to glorify or that enhances the gameplay. So if engineers would check the storage themselves and adjust their reclaim speed down to 0, if necessary and only as long as necessary, that'd add a whole less of a hassle and actually improve the gameplay.

The colors example:
Fine, change the text from
"To have the colors viewed there you'll need to opt in for every single setting."
to
"To have ALL the colors viewed there you'll need to opt in for every single setting."
Still irrelevant, as I asked to add the color info to the unit tooltip that contains the intel and weapon data.

AI being stupid:
Ofc the AI can't think on it's own, that's why it IS stupid, yet the challenge is there as the AI has omnipresence, enabling it to control all units and react to all intel, if it's made to. It doesn't understand any core concepts of the game and merely follows attack- and build orders but if these are designed well, taking certain human actions into consideration you end up with a challenging AI. Once it starts to become challenging the AI may be stupid as it is but yet still provide a challenge and the entertainment I'm looking for, so it's not beneath me.

Also I'm not arrogant enough to ever call any enemy "beneath me" just because I can defeat it. If something is the issue I'd much rather try to fix it or have it fixed. I'm really not looking for an ego boost, especially not towards and AI, but merely for some gameplay fun.

The things I've listed would be some of the issues the game could work on to become a little better.

Btw: What's wrong with the Equilibrium mod ? I really liked how they adressed the issue with the Fatboy now being able to construct units while moving, only tested it three times so far on campaign missions though. I also liked it more that T3 mass fabs cost 3500 energy while active, promoting to advance and actually capture mass nodes on the map opposed to sitting in a base and just generating all resources there with only 1000 energy costing T3 mass fabs in the regular FAF like game.

Statistics: Posted by Idontknowman — 06 Feb 2018, 18:21