Forged Alliance Forever

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2013-04-24T03:38:20+02:00

Still we now have tele SCU who are affordable. Close enough!

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Apr 2013, 03:38

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2013-04-22T19:03:21+02:00

+1 (million) to what Mycen said. I couldn't have put it better.
Hell I couldn't have put it anywhere close..

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 22 Apr 2013, 19:03

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2013-04-22T18:51:09+02:00

The problem with ACU jump jets, as well as unit upgrades, is that they run counter to what SupCom is supposed to be about. The "C" in ACU stands for "Command" unit, not "Combat" unit. Your ACU is not supposed to be able to fly around dealing death, nor is it supposed to be able to simply fly away when confronted by superior forces.

In SupCom you are supposed to have to make long-term decisions and then try and play out your chosen course of action to best effect. If you push your ACU up to take advantage of its overcharge and armor, you are supposed to then have to make sure you prevent your opponent from surrounding you, scout so that you don't wander into artillery range, etc. You are NOT supposed to simply be able to fly away at the first sign of trouble. If you leave your ACU in your base you are supposed to have to make sure you have some TMD and/or shields up so that if you're not paying attention to your backfield your opponent can't snipe you. You are NOT supposed to be able to just click a button and have your ACU hop into a nearby river.

Likewise with the scout example. If you want radar coverage for your forces, you have to decide whether or not you want to take the time away from building more tanks to build some scouts and then get the scouts where they need to go. You can't simply install a radar on your tanks in the field because you realized you need some radar now. That's gameplay for the strategically lazy.

GuardPatroller wrote:
Yes, I also find that teleportation usually takes to long.

It is supposed to, it's a late-game option meant for very large maps. You're not supposed to be able to escape easily if you were foolish enough to put your ACU in danger in the first place.

GuardPatroller wrote:
I do love the ACU battles of SC2 (or at least with Revamp mod, it's on moddb) so stronger ACUs isn't necessarily a bad idea.

Then play SC2. Stronger ACUs are a bad idea, because SupCom is supposed to be about constructing and fielding an army. It's not mechwarrior. The ACU is not supposed to be a significant combat presence past early T2. Why do you think that the upgrades which make ACUs truly formidable in combat (for the ACUs that have such options) are so expensive that they are only possible with a T3 economy? Because at that point there are units powerful enough that they will still roll over an ACU with those upgrades. Because the ACU is not supposed to be the focus of the action. It is meant to be a moving, dangerous, target. A target - not an army. It is what commands your forces, not what leads them.

Blackops? SC2? Tvg? I find the argument that things are done a certain way in other systems so they should be applied in this system rather nonsensical. Why not just play those other systems?

GuardPatroller wrote:
I remember Total Annihilation, they had some upgrades for pop-up defenses and such.

I do not remember one single upgradeable unit from TA - the pop up defenses were units constructed entirely separately.

GuardPatroller wrote:
If they develop that in SC:FA and go a step further, we could have, say, a fast, average hp T2 Cybran tank force fighting against a heavier slower attack fleet of mongooses. If you tell them to drive around the mongooses, the mongooses might have a hard time hitting. Also, the speed allows them to get there faster, likely before the other fleet finishes. It greatly adds to the gameplay.

How does this add anything to the game at all? You already can have the aforementioned situation, except that your fast units would be hoplites (because those are fast, light units) and your opponent's slow units would be Pillars (because those are slow, heavy units). What you're proposing manages to simultaneously add complexity and increase unit redundancy at the same time. How this "adds to the gameplay" is not clear to me.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 22 Apr 2013, 18:51

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2013-04-22T03:29:28+02:00

All the SCUs already have bones with the model for jetpacks. None of them are used, especially the cybran SCU's, which have literal wings with rockets on them, like Buzz Lightyear.

They should be used, IMO.

By the way, the Aeon SCU also has an unused tactical missile launcher muzzle on its backpack and the Cybran SCU has three unused stomach mounted torpedo launchers and two apparently nipple-mounted construction laser bones that are always hidden because there are no upgrades that show them. To see them, eliminate the code that hides these bones when the spawn or press Alt+v and Alt+b to see their unit skeletons and bone names. You will see bones labeled "EXHAUST" and such that you probably have never seen before.

Statistics: Posted by A_vehicle — 22 Apr 2013, 03:29

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-27T21:04:21+02:00

Yes, I also find that teleportation usually takes to long. Generally, if you teleport from your base to somewhere else, it's a one way trip unless you go to build a base, in which case you still might not get the chance to teleport back if that base comes under attack. I also like the jump jet idea, it doesn't seem to let you go too far. The main thing about SC2 is that ACUs can't go in the water, so jump jet usability isn't really 100% for that game. The veterancy becomes OP after about the 20th level, so I think you're right about the less than 10% per level. (Spider at L30 = :O ...)

I do love the ACU battles of SC2 (or at least with Revamp mod, it's on moddb) so stronger ACUs isn't necessarily a bad idea. Blackops upgrades are awesome and as balanced as it'd ever get (so I believe) and tvg makes it more fun to get stronger, though at level 40-50 when you're quadruple-hextruple (made that one up, hah) times as strong as intended by blackops, it's pretty hard for you to die unless you get super experimental spammed (I am talking about the Basilisks and Inquisitors and Goliath) and can't defeat them in time. I guess what I'm getting at is half the bonus (say, 5% instead of 10%) would benefit for later game, though it could possibly harm some of the earlier game benefits.

Customization options would indeed benefit the game further. I remember Total Annihilation, they had some upgrades for pop-up defenses and such. If they develop that in SC:FA and go a step further, we could have, say, a fast, average hp T2 Cybran tank force fighting against a heavier slower attack fleet of mongooses. If you tell them to drive around the mongooses, the mongooses might have a hard time hitting. Also, the speed allows them to get there faster, likely before the other fleet finishes. It greatly adds to the gameplay.

Statistics: Posted by GuardPatroller — 27 Jul 2012, 21:04

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-25T15:35:30+02:00

I agree, Ghoti. Supcom 2's failure as a whole should not turn us off from using some of its features.

Jumpjets and unit upgrades/modifcations straight from the factory are potential improvements from developing further concepts which are already present in forged alliance and FAF.

Balanced ACU jumpjets are not unreasonable for a game which already includes teleport as an upgrade and overcharge as an innate ability(well formerly innate ability). Jumpjets = ghetto personal teleporter.

Upgrades/modifications for mobile units are appropriate in a game which already includes ACU upgrades, structure upgrades, veterancy and toggled abilities.

Take for example unit upgrades to include t1 radar systems or a small AA gun and how they can be chosen during the game by the player to counter something like an early t1 bomber raid. Current intel options are not so great in this scenario. Air scout does not have enough vision radius to track the bomber without excessive micro. Static radar dies very easily to the bomber. Land scout does not have enough radar radius or speed to keep the bomber under radar. The only current options to keep intel on that bomber are to micro excessively or build 2-3 of these intel units, not very efficient as the player can simply send his bomber to your expansions once he sees your intel and counters coming online. What if you could upgrade one of these units for 10-25% more mass/energy/build time to give it increased visual or radar range. Even better, what if for a similar cost you could have basic radar on an interceptor, t1 mobile aa or t1 static AA? Alternatively, the air scout could be upgraded with a basic AA gun(with much less dps than an interceptor). Now instead of people complaining about rebalancing the entire t1 bomber, they are instead presented with new options to create a single unit to counter a single unit instead of forcing them to micro 1 unit excessively or build multiple units to counter.

Now I think for this to be balanced, upgrading something like an interceptor to have radar should cost something similar to what the radar systems of other t1 air units cost(how much of the bomber's cost do you think goes into it's 65 range radar? Adding this to an interceptor could cost near the same). It should not just add a t1 static radar with the same cost to the interceptor's back. Upgrades should be done within the flavor of the unit to address a particular need. An amphibious tank should not get an upgrade to make it fly on maps with no water, but instead an upgrade which sacrifices its amphibious trait for more direct combat effectiveness (dps, range or health etc.).

I think the most compelling argument for adding customization to a unit is that it can often be added in place of altering the base stats of the unit through a balance change. Balance issues such as the early t1 bomber(some make a compelling argument that this is a balance issue for a very high percentage of players) can be addressed without changing the bomber or other base unit in any way.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 25 Jul 2012, 15:35

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-25T10:14:54+02:00

I don't know what the hate is on the ACU jump jets. Not EVERYTHING SupCom 2 did was stupid, Just most things. This ability is fun and interesting. Very often ground position comes into ACU play, so this ability could make for a good alternative to an overcharge.

That said, Have a look at the FAF mod description.
It actually surprised me when the veterancy system was updated. It seems to violate that concept, but not by much.

Research was horrible but unit upgrades can be pretty simple, like for example: rather than aeon having a scout, they can just spend 10 mass on any random tank and give it a radar system. That is simple, actually kind of interesting. So AGAIN, actually doing it would seem to violate FAF's Modus operandi. Again, so did the new veterancy system. Again, way too much negativity.

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 10:14

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-25T04:32:03+02:00

Thanks for the reply! TVG looks interesting but the size of that thread is very intimidating. I like that they tried to develop veterancy. I was thinking more of being able to customize your veterans instead of just making veterans much more powerful like TVG did. I think that current veterancy bonuses are not very useful for some units like ones with lower health and higher damage. For example, a percival benefits from veterancy bonuses much more than a sniper bot. I think the way units gain veterancy levels is currently being developed so maybe the bonuses will be changed in the future. The current bonus per level of 10% more health and regen for tanky units is fine, but many units would benefit much more from even a lesser % bonus per veterancy level in other stat(s).

Jumpjets are probably too shocking for most people to accept even if all they did was to make the ACU hover for an energy cost. I think it is potentially a more balanced and viable replacement for teleport which is too expensive most of the time very difficult to balance due to its extreme effect on victory conditions when it is afforded.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 25 Jul 2012, 04:32

Re: ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-24T06:06:04+02:00

This already exists... It is called tvg. Now in tvg, it's pretty imbalanced and you can use to escape brutally impossible situations where you should be killed. I have a link but I think I'll make a topic talking particularly about tvg. It doesn't even seem to exist in FAF.
http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?t=40012http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?t=40012

Statistics: Posted by GuardPatroller — 24 Jul 2012, 06:06

Re: ACU jumpjets(you know you want them) normal unit upgrade

2012-07-18T21:15:03+02:00

Accidentally deleted a long reply that I do not feel like retyping. Is there any particular reason why you dislike the idea of having jumpjets on the ACU. I'm not suggesting turning it into a permanent restorer on steroids as soon as the game starts. I'm talking about the ACU hovering about at gunship altitude and moving 25-50% faster for 10 seconds maximum with perhaps a 1 minute cooldown and an initial energy cost comparable to overcharge or a moderate energy per second. Either way I think it should cost 100-250 energy per second of hover. The purpose of these would be to negotiate terrain more quickly than walking or swimming without putting the ACU in a transport or to avoid slower projectiles such as missiles/bombs/artillery on a limited basis. The speed would still be less than all normal units by a good margin to not let the ACU be reckless and retreat too easily. Perhaps disable its weapons during the hover as well.

As for the upgradable units in FAF. If you include structures, there are quite a few more than just the ACU and sACU. A t1 mex is not built 'as good as it will ever be', yet it is just as good as what your opponent has at the time. I haven't played command and conquer generals, but from what I gather the analogy with upgrades in FAF is out of place. If you reread my post, I stated that I did not want a tech tree. I wanted to implement it as a build power driven upgrade system just like the ACUs, factories, mexes etc. I do not see how upgrading a factory to produce modified units at certain tier is so out of place when you already upgrade the factory to a higher tier to make better units. If you dislike the idea of being able to upgrade all future units produced from a certain factory, do you never leave t1?

p.s.
I'd look at jumpjets as a fraction of the personal teleporter. Available earlier, and much less potent. I suppose transports are a fine tool for moving your ACU. Jumpjets would probably be a bit powerful as it would let you escape over terrain. They would probably be extremely hard to balance. They would be much easier to balance if they could only be used out of combat.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 18 Jul 2012, 21:15

Re: ACU jumpjets(you know you want them) normal unit upgrade

2012-07-18T20:21:47+02:00

I do not think FAF is the place for a technology tree

Which is pretty much why it shouldn't be done.

I (and I think many others here too) like the fact that as soon as they build a unit, it's as good as it is going to be. If you have built it, it's done, it can fight and there's nothing needed to improve the unit. If we were to add upgrade options for a series of units, you'd take that simple concept away.

The exception are the ACU and SCUs, but only as an exception. I think that little bit of customization is more than enough.

I'm going to make a comparison with C&C. In the first 4 games, you got a unit available and as soon as it was finished and moved out of its factory, it was ready for battle. There was nothing more to be done with it. A very good concept but then came C&C generals along, with its concept of upgrades. Completely contradicting one of the concepts of C&C: all units available are finished and ready.

With SupCom it was about the same. FA and than came SupCom2 along with its tech tree, it simply gave me the idea that a unit was never good enough for battle.

ACU jumpjets(you know you want them)

I know I don't.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 18 Jul 2012, 20:21

ACU jumpjets / normal unit upgrades

2012-07-18T21:17:32+02:00

I do not have the skillset to make it happen, perhaps someone else does. Perhaps it could even be added as a default ability akin to overcharge with a high energy usage cost(toggle on for large amount of energy/sec or perhaps initial cost and limited duration with a cooldown). It would probably need a max duration and cooldown even with a a high energy/sec cost to balance it into the late game economy so you cannot fly constantly.

I think FAF could benefit from additional upgrades for ACUs, units and structures. I know ACU upgrades have been altered quite extensively by some modders. Would it be possible to create a structure in which units could dock and pay for an upgrade? Maybe normal units could be upgraded just like an ACU? For example, a LAB could pay an appropriate amount of resources to acquire a personal shield, weapon upgrades or some sort of utility like radar. Maybe build power would have to be provided by the upgrade structure or engineers etc.

The game could become much more interesting if balanced upgrades were added to normal units. Many strategy games offer you the opportunity to increase the damage output, survivability and utility of non-commander units. I do not think FAF is the place for a technology tree, although it certainly could be an option.

I believe the best implementation would be to choose to modify the units like an ACU after they are produced, or to have the option at the factory with an initial cost and appropriate changes to costs to produce the upgraded units. Factories could even be retooled specifically to produce that modified unit but at the cost of being able to produce anything else. I think dedicating a structure to producing a more powerful and more expensive unit would add a lot to the game without damaging the uniqueness that is supreme commander.

Upgrades also have the ability to make less often used units customizable to perform a useful role. For example, an amphibious tank could be upgraded on a map with no water to make it a better option. I do not like that some units are rarely used because of them being optimal in only very rare circumstances. A last example, the cybran t1 AA and afew other units like sniper bots can be set to different fire modes. I'd like to see this in more units either as upgrades or always available.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 18 Jul 2012, 19:44