Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-10-16T18:46:01+02:00

Myxir wrote:
117 seconds

well more like 118 seconds

But tbh I think that cybran are just as good if not better than any other faction, they have different strengths.

Apart from the arty, their t1 is easily the best.

Stealth and kiting at t2 doesn't quite make up for no mobile shields, but look at the factions that do have shields: Aeon with either rubbish hover tanks and massive overkill no range obsidians, or UEF with all round less range and vastly inferior tmd to counter your vastly superior mmls.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 16 Oct 2012, 18:46

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-10-16T18:19:50+02:00

i really don't get why you all complain about cybran beeing useless or significantly weaker than other factions
check the ladder map stats, cybran has an impressive high win rate

you need less micro than aeon on t1 land and have about equal strong units, about the same as aeon/uef on t2 land because they should keep their units under shields as you want to keep your units stealthed, you have strong t3 land because of the insane splash damage of the mobile arty and really strong bricks, loyalists to stun experimentals, ...
also their navy, their frigates are cheaper, their t2 navy has a significantly longer range (like aeon destroyers) and can be stealthed, even their cruisers can be used for navy fights while they protect against airunits... and against t3 units, they have cheap battleships which can litterally eat up uef battlecruisers or short-range aeon battleships... their only navy problem is subs, but they have stealthed subs to counter such things

and their acu may be 2000 hp weaker than uef ("only" 1000 hp less than aeon), but has 5 hp/s regeneration more than any other acu, means while you lose 2k hp to another acu ( ~23.5 seconds, because of regeneration ), your enemy will have lost about 2100 hp, means you made up for 0.1k hp in only 20 seconds of fighting
by the point of losing 10k hp to only the enemy acu ( ~ 117 seconds ), the uef acu will have lost about 10530 and will definitely die in your deathnuke too
you can make up for your hp disadvantage over time, and turn it into an advantage (as long as you don't let the uef guy get veterancy fast)
and to the upgrades, instead of t2 they have stealth. isn't stealth (which is really cheap!) better than t2 in many cases, as long as you use it properly? use your acu to fight and harrass while you use a t2 engie to build a pd or whatever you wanted, and assist with your acu when needed

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 16 Oct 2012, 18:19

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-10-16T15:13:17+02:00

looks like many people think that cybran are underpowered and they become to much confident in their supremacy so they making useless attacks and giving reclime to cyb player , btw i don't see where i should have more apm when i play cybran... Mech marines, avroras need much more micro to use.

Also some cybran units effectivnes unbeleaveble increases with increasing numbers of enemy units (t1,t3 cyb mob arty), or some units made exacly to counter other units - like hoplites kills tons of avroras without overkill, also t1 and t2 cyb air domination is most annoying because of jesters and corsairs
Cybran navy is fine in not long battles, as cybran player i hate t1 pd's with walls at aerly stage of game, or labs killing my mantis easyly.
The type of map affects balance to much many many things depends on map

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 16 Oct 2012, 15:13

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-07-02T18:40:53+02:00

Boys.... Cool your jets... IMO the people who know how to use cybran correctly, do very well with them, just not many people do...

Statistics: Posted by Cerberus — 02 Jul 2012, 18:40

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-07-02T15:02:42+02:00

Anaryl, you are the one who said, yourself, that Aeon are "easy to use":

Anaryl wrote:
Just because they aren't as prevalent as say Aeon or Sera players in the top end of the ladder, speaks more to the ease of using said factions, than to any deficiency of the Cybran faction.

Now you say:

Anaryl wrote:
I argued how do you quantify it. Is 30 APM considered difficult for management of, say Auroras? Is Aurora management really any more heavy than managing any other T1 force? How would you count it? It's not imperfect, it's utterly impractical.

So, apparently, you're the only one allowed to decide what is "easy to use". I'm still waiting to hear how you came to the definition of what is "easy to use" and what is not, as anyone attempting to provide evidence to the contrary is swatted away as using "utterly impractical" measurements, while your currently-undisclosed measurements seem to be above reproach.

My question then, still stands: if APM is "utterly impractical", what empirical measurements do *you* use to come to your conclusions regarding the relative ease of use of various factions and units?

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 02 Jul 2012, 15:02

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-07-02T13:24:37+02:00

Anaryl wrote:
Dominating with Cybran is different to Aeon and Cybran. Ease of use is a relative term, different players find different things difficult. How do you quantify or qualify ease of use?

Simply put, you need more APM to competently play Aeon than any other faction. I have come to this conclusion by a large amount of in game experience and then analyzing my replays with FAChart. It's also common sense: if you can't quickly react to skirmishes, your groups of Auroras will become overrun and die. If you can, you can kite other groups of units, giving you a large advantage. There are many other examples of this in the faction (shield micro, t2 air micro, etc), but Aurora micro is perhaps the easiest example to point to.

APM, while perhaps imperfect, is the only empirical measurement we have. If you have a better one, and I can only assume you do as you are the one who brought "ease of use" up in the first place, please go ahead and share.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 02 Jul 2012, 13:24

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-07-02T10:02:11+02:00

I never said these were Cybran-exclusive examples. They are for illustrating my point of actions/time/APM being a significant factor in a Real Time Strategy game.

I'm comparing the actions needed to get land units from point A to point B. Building frigates doesn't bring my land units across water.

I stand by my original statements about stealth requiring more planning and micromanagement than mobile shield generators to be effective, and the severe weaknesses of the Cybran ACU in duelling situations early on.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 02 Jul 2012, 10:02

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-30T12:51:07+02:00

If you Want some acu changes then look in the link in my sig for some ideas. I also agree that cybran do need more apm for example moving hoplights around constantly an making sure every unit is kept in the stealth field.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 30 Jun 2012, 12:51

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-30T12:50:51+02:00

people dont play cybran in 5v5 because cyb have bad defence, and as i thimk they are bad at simple face to face maps like winter duel (most maps are look like 5 times copyed WD)
. also t4 monkey and mega may be not good units in 5v5.
cyb have not much things that you can call best of all other factions - may be that is the reason

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 30 Jun 2012, 12:50

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-29T17:56:21+02:00

Anaryl wrote:
Ease of use is a relative term, different players find different things difficult. How do you quantify or qualify ease of use?

The number of actions needed to perform a task. This closely relates to APM and time.

Examples:
1. Attack-moving a group of floating arty across a body of water, compared to, setting up and ferrying multiple groups of units across in a transport.

2. Towering in one location with shields and PDs, compared to, planning and executing many different types of strikes at various locations (how Cybran is meant to be played).

3. Building a UEF shield generator, compared to, building a Cybran shield generator then upgrading it many times to the equivalent level.

If a faction requires more APM to use as effectively as another faction, that is a factor. We're playing a Real Time Strategy after all and time is a valuable resource.

I'm getting the impression that the original devs vastly underrated the time needed to effectively use stealth, the Cybran's signature ability, especially vs human opponents. Compare this to other factions' specials like mobile shield generators, which require almost no planning or micromanagement to be really effective.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 29 Jun 2012, 17:56

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-28T22:31:07+02:00

ok switch stealth with engineer upgrade

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 28 Jun 2012, 22:31

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-28T21:44:14+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
Kryo wrote:torpedo upgrade and engi upgrade should be switched slots....

+1 to this.

Don't you dare.
Torps + T3 + stealth makes for super strong naval presence. Nothing can come near you in the water.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 28 Jun 2012, 21:44

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-28T08:11:34+02:00

With the medusa accuracy improvement (among other things) in the upcoming patch, Cybran will be a bit stronger so there is no need to complain : play the balance test mode already and have all the fun you want.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 28 Jun 2012, 08:11

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-28T07:14:08+02:00

I think it's worth noting that a metagame will form around any set of rules, but that doesn't mean it's balanced.

The metagame may just be "don't duel ACU's early on as Cybran" or simply "don't play Cybran".

If a faction requires more APM to use as effectively as another faction, that is a factor. We're playing a Real Time Strategy after all and time is a valuable resource.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 28 Jun 2012, 07:14

Re: Why is the man so hard on the Cybran Nation?

2012-06-28T04:50:44+02:00

Anaryl wrote:
Just because they aren't as prevalent as say Aeon or Sera players in the top end of the ladder, speaks more to the ease of using said factions, than to any deficiency of the Cybran faction.

Sera, considering that they have a smaller number of stronger units which require relatively little control to use effectively, sure. However, claiming that Aeon is "easy to use" is foolhardy at best.

Secondly, if two factions are to be considered equal, but one is comparatively easier to use, then the relative lack of ease of use by the other is necessarily a "deficiency" that one must take into consideration when attempting to accurately compare the two factions.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 28 Jun 2012, 04:50