Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-18T16:09:29+02:00

Maybe we should change it to if 10*mtime < etime then time=etime.

It's only a small little thing but I was amazed by how quickly the hydro is removed by reclaiming. In reference to building (and reclaiming is reverse building), where things usually cost 10 times the energy, I'd think that this little change would make sense.

But then again, it's only a small thing.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 18 Jan 2017, 16:09

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-18T15:35:53+02:00

sorry but thats not true, reclaim time of a live target isnt as simple as you think:

Code:: local mtime = target_bp.Economy.BuildCostEnergy / self:GetBuildRate() local etime = target_bp.Economy.BuildCostMass / self:GetBuildRate() local time = mtime if mtime < etime then time = etime end time = time * (self.ReclaimTimeMultiplier or 1) time = math.max( (time/10), 0.0001) --This should never be 0 or we'll divide by 0 return time, target_bp.Economy.BuildCostEnergy, target_bp.Economy.BuildCostMass

first, it depends on the cost and not the build time, and second it is 10 times faster for a unit.
lastly if the e cost is larger than the mass cost it uses that one instead.
so for a hydro that is: 160 mass / 800 energy and so 8 seconds to reclaim. also this is why reclaiming factories works.

likewise, with t2 engineering suite you can very very quickly reclaim tanks and in fact its way more dps vs t1 than even overcharge would do. but you dont get vet and its at a lower range.

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Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 18 Jan 2017, 15:35

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-18T14:52:22+02:00

angus000 wrote:
By the way, reclaiming a hydro with your t1 acu is faster than shooting at it.

Errm no it is not, t1 acu takes 40 seconds to build/reclaim a hydro, 16 seconds to shoot it to death.

Statistics: Posted by Freedomfighter — 18 Jan 2017, 14:52

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T18:36:30+02:00

difference with air units is that an air staging facility repairs bscly for free (5% cost) and so it doesnt make sense to even ctrlk since that would lose you 21% of mass and 100% of energy, rather than a maximum of 5% of both.

so rebuilding/repairing air units is useless, but putting them in airstaging is the opposite.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 17 Jan 2017, 18:36

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T17:37:22+02:00

Don't forget that if you're using reclaim, you can't move. If you're running away from a large group of units, the running away makes a bigger difference than the damage you do. If you have OC, then you stop for a moment to give the OC order and then give the move order again. If you're using Auto-OC, you don't stop at all.

Reclaim, as fast as it is, will force you to stop for longer. Given the fact that units are closer to you when they're in reclaim range, it's also safe to assume that the larger part of the enemy units is closer than when the first targets are only in shooting range. That threat should be an incentive to run like hell.

Finally, a kill will give you a veterancy point, a reclaim won't. We all know several occasions where one or two kills would've made the difference between surviving the enemy blob of units and being killed by it. My own experience in that way was overcharging an enemy commander and getting the 20th kill from that. I then survived with 500 HP after the explosion.

Strongly disagree with iszh on this matter then.

Something as simple as my wailers being at full hp after blowing something up and surviving flak seems obvious to me but eh. Everything's subjective I suppise

The dynamic of Gunships is quite different from the dynamic of ASFs.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 17 Jan 2017, 17:37

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T17:25:22+02:00

Strongly disagree with iszh on this matter then.

Something as simple as my wailers being at full hp after blowing something up and surviving flak seems obvious to me but eh. Everything's subjective I suppise

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 17 Jan 2017, 17:25

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T15:17:16+02:00

If you don't have oc I guess reclaiming t2 tanks does way more damage than actually shooting them

If you're surrounded by t1 tanks you can also reclaim them when you have t2 but you stop moving towards your own units so most likely you will die anyway

T2 suite is pretty useful if you have acu underwater and some hover over you

If you have a t3 unit near your comm and you have no oc you're dead anyway

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 17 Jan 2017, 15:17

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T14:58:05+02:00

So if you have t2 com the extra build power would allow you to reclaim live structures/units killing them faster? Is it ever worth using com to reclaim enemy tanks rather than shooting at them?

Statistics: Posted by Thatcherite — 17 Jan 2017, 14:58

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T12:39:47+02:00

It is not used because for some people costs to much time and is not worth. You can defeat a plane with another plane even if it has only 1 hp left. They main point is that it is behind the other plane. Thats just to show that in air fights micro and time matter more than hp. Not even sure if in big air fights it matters. You have lots of overkill. 200 asf shooting into a cloud of other asf and if a plane has low hp it might anyways would be hit by 10 shots the same time which would kill it. So you can treat a big asf cloud more like 1 unit. If a few units are damaged it does not matter. If you have 50% damaged units you should repair them. But this does not happen usually because you either won air in a big battle so you dont care if planes are shot or not or you lost it and all planes are dead.

If you could sent a battleship to repair the difference would be a desaster. And that would be definately imbalanced because to retreat a uef battleship with 3km range compared to an aeon battleship which is close to enemy.

In general reclaiming is an important key to win games. Reclaim is a possibility to increase your strength additional to the normal income you have. You should take anything you can get. If you have to retreat take your not finished buildings and everything you can. Reclaiming own stuff is important especially for pgens. Once your got t3 pgens an/or ras you need to reclaim your t1 and t2 pgens. Energy from a t3 pgens costs 1/3 or even less compared to t1. T2 is not worth it unfortunately not even if in combination with nukes or t3 mass fabs.I think if you use t2 pgens for a nuke thats the best you can get out of them. So you should always prepare a t2 pgen template for shields t1 pd and place for a nuke in middle. You gain 50% of 4500e cost thats 2250 / 4 = 562. Thats at least the same like a t3 pgen. But for all other uses simply reclaim the t2 pgens no matter if you ctrk them or just reclaim. You have to take care if you blow t1 pgens in a row the splash damage kills lots of mass because the explosion is damaging the wreckages. Better manual reclaim.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 17 Jan 2017, 12:39

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T12:30:55+02:00

With regards to repairing, consider air staging facilities for t3 air.
They're very fast at their repair jobs, and I'm pretty sure if there were naval/land equivalents we would see repair being used more - as units being alive mean they don't take up factory time.

For example, post ASF- fight it's very common to have damaged aircraft. Air staging can result in those aircraft which would otherwise die to a single shot now taking a few more. It can snowball, but it isn't very commonly used it seems.

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 17 Jan 2017, 12:30

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T11:07:59+02:00

Never really thought too much about what determines the reclaim speed of living units. Was under the impression that build time is it since you can reclaim wall segments very fast despite them having lots of hp.
But since Hydros have lots of build time i just assume it's Energy cost.

so i guess this is false

Reclaiming a live unit takes the same amount of time that it would for that engineer or group of engineers to build it.

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 17 Jan 2017, 11:07

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T10:41:54+02:00

Same with uef land factories and some other factories

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 17 Jan 2017, 10:41

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T10:14:17+02:00

By the way, reclaiming a hydro with your t1 acu is faster than shooting at it.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 17 Jan 2017, 10:14

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T03:24:49+02:00

Whaaaaaaaat!?!? I believe you (also because I saw it in speed2's video), but that makes no sense. So, if the Ctrl+K command did not exist, an ACU would "reclaim" faster by first shooting the structure with its gun. That is super unintuitive. Why would the game be set up like that?

Reclaiming a live unit takes the same amount of time that it would for that engineer or group of engineers to build it. For most things a T1 commander can damage a unit more quickly than they could by reclaiming it, but if you upgrade the commander to t2 or t3 then you might find situations where an ACU can reclaim a unit of building faater than it could kill it with its gun.

Statistics: Posted by everywhere116 — 17 Jan 2017, 03:24

Re: Reclaiming your own stuff?

2017-01-17T03:01:37+02:00

Thank you all for being such a great help! Some of this stuff works in very unintuitive ways and I'm glad I asked.

speed2 wrote:
This could answer a question or two

It certainly did, and more. Thank you! I'll be checking out your other tutorials as well.

KeyBlue wrote:
You can't actually reclaim a 'live' unit. Doing a reclaim command on a 'live' unit will slowly remove its hp to 0, at which point the unit dies and becomes a wreckage. During this process you gain no resources.

Whaaaaaaaat!?!? I believe you (also because I saw it in speed2's video), but that makes no sense. So, if the Ctrl+K command did not exist, an ACU would "reclaim" faster by first shooting the structure with its gun. That is super unintuitive. Why would the game be set up like that?

KeyBlue wrote:
You get more than 50% of the mass for reclaiming it compared to having to start at 50%. So if only mass is the limiting factor it is better to just reclaim it than to rebuild it.

So, if I understand this correctly...

If I reclaim the structure and then rebuild it, the net cost is 19% of the original mass (100%-81%, less if the wreck was damaged) but 100% power and 100% build time.
If I rebuild on top of the wreckage, the net cost is 50% of everything.

Right?

KeyBlue wrote:
When reclaiming an unfinished building you do get all the mass and energy you put in it back. [...] This knowledge can be used in the tight situation where all your t2 or t3 pgens get sniped and now you are in total power stall. Just rebuild a pgen on top of each wreck and turn these 2 50% unfinished buildings into 1 finished building by reclaiming 1 of them so you can put the energy you gain from it into the other one.

So... rebuilding on top of the wreck insta-builds the first 50%, and because it's no longer a wreck, reclaiming that 50% provides not just mass but also energy. Whereas wrecks only give you mass when you reclaim them, right? That's going to come in handy!

Statistics: Posted by Xyx — 17 Jan 2017, 03:01