Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-28T03:06:21+02:00

biass wrote:
SpoCk0nd0pe wrote: but I'm pretty confident most people have more fun moving units then clicking rocks.

Actually i think i like clicking rocks more than i like microing units, rocks wont randomly stop or get munted pathfinding when i try to dodge bullets and i probably get more of a benefit nowadays from it too.

I can see what you mean. FAF isn't heavily focused on unit micro either and I wouldn't suggest changing that. But maybe you could warm up to allow for earlier unit engagements? Sure they benefit from micro, but you also have the interactive element of out-thinking and outsmarting your opponent.

Side Note:
IMHO clicking rocks is kind of o.k. btw (still not a fan). I've more of a problem manually reclaiming shipwrecks and tree groups. The shipwrecks can be hard to click, tree groups need move commands. When giving move commands left and rightclick change. This leads to very aggravating misclicks deleting the queue.

Farmsletje wrote:
Who are said "most people" you are talking about?

An imaginative majority of somewhat competitive RTS players. Many commercially successful RTS go for more unit interaction. I think their marketing teams are onto something. But as my statement implied: It is speculation.

Statistics: Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe — 28 Nov 2018, 03:06

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-27T15:19:29+02:00

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:
but I'm pretty confident most people have more fun moving units then clicking rocks.

Actually i think i like clicking rocks more than i like microing units, rocks wont randomly stop or get munted pathfinding when i try to dodge bullets and i probably get more of a benefit nowadays from it too.

R_Charger wrote:
No one commenting on what constitutes crossing the line for UI modifications.

Most people agree ecomanager is "THE" fence sitter, but only because it can actively harm you if you're bad

zero k

Hopefully when the next generation becomes game designers they'll make something actually worth your time.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 27 Nov 2018, 15:19

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-27T11:55:49+02:00

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:
Farmsletje wrote:Unit micro currently is a nicely balanced APM sink.

But viewed in ISOLATION it is not interesting gameplay.

Except most people think it is. Maybe not the excessive micro focus of Blizzard's RTS, but I'm pretty confident most people have more fun moving units then clicking rocks.

Who are said "most people" you are talking about?

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 27 Nov 2018, 11:55

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-27T10:37:52+02:00

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:
Farmsletje wrote:Unit micro currently is a nicely balanced APM sink.

But viewed in ISOLATION it is not interesting gameplay.

Except most people think it is. Maybe not the excessive micro focus of Blizzard's RTS, but I'm pretty confident most people have more fun moving units then clicking rocks.

I think long time ago I was suggesting "click and drag" reclaim, which is something between click and area reclaim, completly ignored...

I figured out how to do it with mouse macro I just moving my mouse and macro clicking rocks for me

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 27 Nov 2018, 10:37

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-27T03:50:14+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
Unit micro currently is a nicely balanced APM sink.

But viewed in ISOLATION it is not interesting gameplay.

Except most people think it is. Maybe not the excessive micro focus of Blizzard's RTS, but I'm pretty confident most people have more fun moving units then clicking rocks.

Statistics: Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe — 27 Nov 2018, 03:50

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-26T17:46:07+02:00

Florkensteen wrote:
Frankly from the short time I've tried Zero-K I found it disgustingly inconvenient and flawed.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad game from the looks of it, but it is not very well tuned with its commands and kind of indirect with how they teach it to you. Honestly I also think they try to make it out as "deep", with some artificial designs and approaches to the game, like the wide number of similar looking units for every different land factory available from the beginning of the game, seems so forced or rather stuffed.

In regards to the topic, I'm sure with that game they took some clues from other RTS games like supcom, and introduced some quality-of-life improvements with the commands. For FAF however, I'm not that it should be given as much serious inquiry when the spirit and style of the game is vastly different; suggestions of changes like these take some good observations and testing to root out any obstructions that could harm the competitive potential to our scene.

Well, I haven't played it enough to really comment on the gameplay, but I do find that it has a different approach and it's fascinating to me just for the novelty alone.

The completely flat and wide open tech tree, and the huge number of subtle physics interactions between all the similar-but-different-projectile-and-physics units, etc, present a new and interesting puzzle box to unlock. Whether what's inside is worth the effort, I don't know.

UI-wise I love being able to just draw a formation by right-dragging the mouse, setting circle guard on a unit, area commands, etc.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 26 Nov 2018, 17:46

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-26T15:48:48+02:00

I look forward to the testing and subsequent observations...

No one commenting on what constitutes crossing the line for UI modifications. Probably because either people aren't interested or no one can agree. Isn't this the sort of thing FAF develop should trial though? I'm also suspicious there will be people against UI improvements because they already use versions of their own..but maybe that's just paranoia

Statistics: Posted by R_Charger — 26 Nov 2018, 15:48

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-26T05:49:44+02:00

Frankly from the short time I've tried Zero-K I found it disgustingly inconvenient and flawed.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad game from the looks of it, but it is not very well tuned with its commands and kind of indirect with how they teach it to you. Honestly I also think they try to make it out as "deep", with some artificial designs and approaches to the game, like the wide number of similar looking units for every different land factory available from the beginning of the game, seems so forced or rather stuffed.

In regards to the topic, I'm sure with that game they took some clues from other RTS games like supcom, and introduced some quality-of-life improvements with the commands. For FAF however, I'm not that it should be given as much serious inquiry when the spirit and style of the game is vastly different; suggestions of changes like these take some good observations and testing to root out any obstructions that could harm the competitive potential to our scene.

Statistics: Posted by Ze Dogfather — 26 Nov 2018, 05:49

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-25T16:09:09+02:00

Maybe a little off topic, but I've been playing a bit of Zero-K lately, and it's very nice that they seem to have followed the path of accepting "nice features" when possible. So they have area commands, circle guard, terraforming, and various other nice UI features. Sadly the usuability is a bit off, with these features being accessed by complicated combinations of Ctrl / Alt / Shift clicking, but it's still nice.

I have no idea how competitively viable Zero-K is vs. FAF, but at least I haven't heard anything about how UI features completely ruin that game or anything.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 25 Nov 2018, 16:09

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T18:19:27+02:00

Doh, off course its my subjective view....all our views are subjective. Its not like we are doing some impartial experiment (and then the questions you ask are subjective anyway).

This mod doesn't stop you microing units. The split attack part of it is an improvement on the current split attack (or are you against that too as it reduces micro?).

If you want to concentrate fire on one unit then obviously split attack isn't what you want. If you want to dodge artillery then this isn't what you want. Why would anyone want to individually assign assist orders for multiple mobile shields individually? In the early game when you want to grab the biggest rocks most quickly then using area commands aren't going to be optimal so their is room for high APM players to get an advantage by using manual reclaim.

But I still think they would add control to the game, and having responsive controls is very important (hence why we have hotkeys and we can actually define our own based on unit types). Don't get me wrong I think Forged Alliance is the best RTS out there even after all this time, but that doesn't mean the UI couldn't be better. Having an area transport command might also be cool, rather than (or in addition to) the present ferry point/transport system.

How would you feel about a mod which allowed you to queue up and repeat moves (like patrol but without stopping to attack)? Would this also be a step too far in reducing micro...(or would it open up new tactical opportunities and force new ways to combat them)? If so why..and why have normal patrol in that case...? I'm know I changing the subject slightly but I'm just trying to get an idea of where the line is for UI improvements (in what is actually a strategy game not an FPS).

Statistics: Posted by R_Charger — 24 Nov 2018, 18:19

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T15:13:34+02:00

What seems dumb to you shouldn't be basis to why gameplay should be changed entirely, as its your subjective view. And making an aspect of the game automated makes the game easier thus less complex and interesting for many a people. Why would someone new to faf learn how to micro his units, if he can just use the area command?

Statistics: Posted by Platinumizer — 24 Nov 2018, 15:13

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T18:21:42+02:00

That's not what I said. I was making the point improving area attack would likely make them more effective against other armies. I wasnt saying area attacks was a solution to a current deficiency with the units per se.

You know discussing stuff. The deficiency is that the current split attack is not as good as this mod. I really can't see why there is so much resistance to this. I've read the whole thread and agree with the thrust of the arguments exotic and admiral are making. I don't see how area commands dum down anything really, quite the opposite in fact. Having to individually assign assist orders, use a sub standard split attack, or use attack move or patrol to manage reclaim seems dum to me. Having assist/repair areas would be cool too. Now if we could define hot keys for units with less than x health we could send them back for repairs etc

Statistics: Posted by R_Charger — 24 Nov 2018, 13:58

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T12:15:34+02:00

As if units with high alpha are not effective yet ...

Statistics: Posted by Platinumizer — 24 Nov 2018, 12:15

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T10:38:29+02:00

Normal split attack in FAF works.

For this mod to work you need to make the simple changes in lua as discussed by Viba and Philip on page 7.

Its a Sim mod unfortunately as the people that make decisions think this change will reduce the skill of the game, whereas I reckon it would make split attacks, and mobile shield assists of control_
-grouped units easier. This would make army maneuver and composition much more important. Some units such as those with high alpha like obsidians or tech 3 tanks might also benefit from easier /quicker queuing of split attacks which could make them much more effective if managed this way.

Statistics: Posted by R_Charger — 24 Nov 2018, 10:38

Re: Area Commands

2018-11-24T00:39:46+02:00

Yep, I read it again and it was bad redacted. I was asking if the split attack really works. I tried to do it but never noticed any change, to my eye looked like a standard attack each unit going on its own.

Statistics: Posted by NapSpan — 24 Nov 2018, 00:39