Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-17T19:50:55+02:00

was inititaly a larger post until timeout ..
so to put it short ...
i specifically said ASSAULT units mainly t1 tanksbots t2 tanks bot and t3 assaults ..

"It's curious that you'd used this critic anyhow because PA is infinitely more targeted by it."

i don´t find this to be realy true except ant - leveler and maybe hummingbird -phoenix units for the most part feel unlike each other to be a mere upgrade ..
aside from that PA´s has still more varied play because it doesn´t limit its options to pure snipe like how it is the case with say mercies and and firebeatles ...

also i´m saying how both games "feel" to me from a spectatorviewpoint
how units are on paper and what players consistently use are 2 different things

just looking at highlevelplay doesn´t help .. i want to see he general player be encouraged to use his supportoptions ..

Statistics: Posted by MrTBSC — 17 Sep 2016, 19:50

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-14T18:26:58+02:00

MrTBSC wrote:
that the higher tier assaultunits just flatout feel like upgrades to their low tier ones without realy having any disadvantages to keep low tier units and/or other units viable throughout .. unless the player spams them like a maniac ... and this has been a problem imo since .. ever ..

this is just a flat out re-quote from naysayers-ville.

there is no such thing as i'm sure you'll be able to witness if you play the game.

higher dps-per-mass outputs are almost unilaterally achieved with t1 (t1 bomber. t1 arty). This in and of itself should be enough to seal any debate there.

this applies to alot of things going up the tech tree. t1 arty is a good answer to t2 pd. t3 percies (or other tanks) are a good answer to most t4.

t2 tml is a good answer to t4 uef tank. so on .... so.... FORTH.

but furthermore FA uses tiers more as specifications than as upgrades. t2 anti air is the best for slow lumbering t3-t4 air units something close to five times better and that despite it's lower mass cost.

for faster targets however t3 anti air remains the best.

all "original" type gameplay is at t2 : firebeetles. tml. tmd. mercies. steath bot. and none of these have "upgrades". t2 arty and t2 missle unit (which one's the upgrade to t1 arty? neither are remotely used in the same manner. floating tanks (militarily t2 no t3 floating tanks) com drop. and almost none have a "better at t3 equivalent unit" except for in the specific case of UEF with t3 transport. no "upgrades" there.

so you'll find yourself constantly going back to t2 for those things you continue to need at the t3 and t4 stage.

but the list of rebuttals to this fundamentally bullshit and over-repeated argument goes on :

the scus aren't an "upgrade" to any unit they loose out to upgraded com but aren't fundamentally "weaker" either they carry some features sometimes their own commander does not have.

I could go on but this is something i wrote a wall of text for on the ashes forum and PA forum as well and I get tired of repeating myself.

It's curious that you'd used this critic anyhow because PA is infinitely more targeted by it.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 14 Sep 2016, 18:26

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-13T16:48:46+02:00

i just know i want a overall more dynamic/diverse game to watch (and eventualy to play if i get the feel it´ll be worth, so far it just isn´t to me)

i´m sure you will say PA has similar if not the same problem with air (hummingbirds all night long) but with PA matches generaly feel more variet (even without orbital and naval ... and couple ballance/tweak issues aside) ... though that´s a bit of a bad comparison with these games differing paces ...

the biggest problem i have with SCOM ground is just (and that may apply to air too) that the higher tier assaultunits just flatout feel like upgrades to their low tier ones without realy having any disadvantages to keep low tier units and/or other units viable throughout .. unless the player spams them like a maniac ... and this has been a problem imo since .. ever ..

Statistics: Posted by MrTBSC — 13 Sep 2016, 16:48

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-12T17:06:17+02:00

MrTBSC wrote:
i´m still primarily speaking about groundplay from a spectative point ... and air feels less like an issue to me ...

to be honest though air comparatively has more issues than ground.

in FAF air matters too much and there isn't an interesting dynamic between air units.

in ground warfare you'll see compositions of 1-1-1-2-2 whereas air looks more like 1-70 (1 bomber for every 70 fighter). and sometimes straight up 1 (only spam one type of unit : t3 aeon gunship or t3 air superiority fighter)

I'm sure you can see which of the two is in need of more love.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 12 Sep 2016, 17:06

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-12T15:33:36+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Many games are predictable just because of the economy aspect. If you have a larger eco, then you just steamroll with more units. If you have an equal economy then you get a standoff until the eco is different or until someone makes a mistake.

If you have less then you try to hold on for dear life.

It's that last situation that can give the best games because the player is forced to do the best thing with his units. If he doesn't do the best thing it's a standard game with a standard outcome.

You need the best situation for the game to be truly beautiful and that simply doesn't happen often.

sounds like every strategy game ever ...

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
When do you build T1 bombers later in the game? When you face a land Experimental and don't have to gunships available in large numbers very quickly. You don't do that when your opponent is forced up in one place with shields and flak. Then you go for strat bombers.

With the new T1 bomber it may be more interesting though. Large T1 land armies are more vulnerable to less of these. But again the true vulnerability comes from the no AA mistake of your opponent, not because you're being clever with a seemingly puny unit.

i don´t mind some tweaks to air if it makes watching games more intresting ..
i´m still primarily speaking about groundplay from a spectative point ... and air feels less like an issue to me ...

Statistics: Posted by MrTBSC — 12 Sep 2016, 15:33

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-10T19:19:27+02:00

Many games are predictable just because of the economy aspect. If you have a larger eco, then you just steamroll with more units. If you have an equal economy then you get a standoff until the eco is different or until someone makes a mistake.

If you have less then you try to hold on for dear life.

It's that last situation that can give the best games because the player is forced to do the best thing with his units. If he doesn't do the best thing it's a standard game with a standard outcome.

You need the best situation for the game to be truly beautiful and that simply doesn't happen often.

When do you build T1 bombers later in the game? When you face a land Experimental and don't have to gunships available in large numbers very quickly. You don't do that when your opponent is forced up in one place with shields and flak. Then you go for strat bombers.

With the new T1 bomber it may be more interesting though. Large T1 land armies are more vulnerable to less of these. But again the true vulnerability comes from the no AA mistake of your opponent, not because you're being clever with a seemingly puny unit.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 10 Sep 2016, 19:19

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-10T15:22:03+02:00

Morax wrote:
The games are boring because people have discovered how to best get the job done with minimal effort...

We are in the middle of introducing some changes to the balance / mechanics so that it freshens up a bit, so sit tight if ya can.

Also, try and watch high-level players verse the "average joes" if you want to see good gameplay.

the general idea should be to encourage players to make more use of specialist units
this could be done through either buffing them or making them cheaper/less powerconsuming but i don´t realy know ..

prodromos wrote:
in fact all games that have a resemblance to supcom, require huge brainpower.

argueable ...

awerness is what matters ..

Zock wrote:
..maybe you just watch the wrong games.

blame @BRNK and @Gyle then or show me a hundred recent matches with great gameplay

LichKing2033 wrote:
Why would you use labs in a direct assault force? they raid good but nothing else.

and yet they are barely even used for that .. in very few games you see labs at best for 3 to 4 minutes if at all ..

as for the ballancechanges from what i heard they are to promote a potentionaly longer t1 phase?
i rather consider this problematic from a spectactorviewpoint because this basicaly means
players are stuck much longer with the few groundunitoptions they are given unless they techrush ...

IMO the players should be able to gain more options sooner but them not being overly powerful to just outright replace the lower tiers but instead have them work with them while avoiding homogenisation of the unitpools

Statistics: Posted by MrTBSC — 10 Sep 2016, 15:22

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T16:48:50+02:00

Seriosuly, Nepty? You posted a replay of a broken map as reference when there are far better?

MrTBsC, look at how LuXun uses tmls to kill percies on this map as Sera where there is obviously a huge disadvantage at t3. There are PLENTY of games out there where people use all the tools available to win matches.

object

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 09 Sep 2016, 16:48

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T10:32:04+02:00

Because it is much harder to implement innovative strategies in the heat of the battle.

This game , in fact all games that have a resemblance to supcom, require huge brainpower.

You have to track a vast battlefield and your opponent is not going to wait until you come up with a
groundbreaking strategy. So, most of the "moves" necessarily are reflex moves for a great number of players.

Nothing to be ashamed of. If you watch replays of top players , though , you will find what you seek.
It is a real treat to watch them. I think you should , too.

P.S. Plus having a game that reaches to t3 or t4, or that uses all of the units , in your arsenal, is not necessarily
going to be interesting, as such games tend to degenerate into farm building, with slow decision making.
If you play for an hour with almost no action it is natural that you will reach t4 and chances are that you will build everything that can be built.
This does not mean you will evade monotony. The good game is not the one you build yet again the next experimental in your building queue. And of course
it is not epic to build a huge army. Epic is to cause most damage with the least amount of units.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 09 Sep 2016, 10:32

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T02:11:40+02:00

Why would you use labs in a direct assault force? they raid good but nothing else.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 09 Sep 2016, 02:11

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T01:07:58+02:00

keyser wrote:
#notueffanboyatall

#Triggered

Statistics: Posted by Nepty — 09 Sep 2016, 01:07

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T00:36:07+02:00

#notueffanboyatall

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 09 Sep 2016, 00:36

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-09T00:29:19+02:00

object

Old, but good. Cybran wanted to play Starship troopers. They are the bugs. I really like this replay.

Statistics: Posted by Nepty — 09 Sep 2016, 00:29

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-08T23:07:15+02:00

..maybe you just watch the wrong games.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 08 Sep 2016, 23:07

Re: Monotonous matches to watch ..

2016-09-08T21:41:19+02:00

The games are boring because people have discovered how to best get the job done with minimal effort...

We are in the middle of introducing some changes to the balance / mechanics so that it freshens up a bit, so sit tight if ya can.

Also, try and watch high-level players verse the "average joes" if you want to see good gameplay.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 08 Sep 2016, 21:41