Forged Alliance Forever

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-18T10:14:10+02:00

Ah, clever. That's a neat idea.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 18 May 2012, 10:14

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-17T22:22:59+02:00

Until the function is integrated to FA, the lobby is showing only the % on even teams.

When FA integrate it, it will display the % on even teams, and the lobby the % on odd teams + you to complete.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 17 May 2012, 22:22

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-16T16:41:41+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
I have my concerns over it, but they're easily addressed. Yours, however, seem like needless nitpicking.
.
Hardly nitpicking. Really not my intention to despise some hard work just for the sake of it, quite the contrary. I'm merely expressing my deep concerns and doubts about how this could have a negative impact on the game. And I simply took some concrete examples (just like providing replays when it comes to balance arguments) to illustrate my concerns.

What are your concerns btw ?

My concerns revolved around the idea that it went to 0 way to quickly. I know it's entirely irrational, but people will play more games if the lowest it could get to was 20 rather than 0.

My concerns with your posts were that the situations in which you posted were the rarest of cases and, generally, irrelevant (only on certain maps do the positions matter. For example, in a 2v2 on four corners it matters not in which order the players spawn, unless you're going to take into account exactly who is opposite whom, which would be tricky).

-_V_- wrote:
Gowerly wrote:Scenarii is not the English plural of scenario (hint: Scenarios).

Okiiie, really , should we go into that? lol. If only the etymology of the word was not english, oh wait...

From the same site (Wikitionary)

However, the plural of the Italian word scenario is scenari, making “scenarii” etymologically inconsistent.

When the English take words from other languages (i.e. always), the standard is to add English puralisations, otherwise we'd spend our time trying to remember which one's were stolen from where and would have to remember that the plural of Octopus was, in fact, Octopodes.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 16 May 2012, 16:41

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T14:30:54+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
For sure not everybody plays for fun, and exactly, most people care about rating , which is undoubtedly a source for never ending team-balance discussions.

And even they are REALLY playing for fun, a fun game is a balanced one.

-_V_- wrote:
For those who really need a rating over the other ones, they can play ladder. That is exactly why it's called this way.

It's called matchmaker and not ladder. There is no ladder yet in FAF (they was not really one in GPG either).
What I'm trying to do is to bring the matchmaker possibilities over custom game in order to have more fun -and balanced- games. This is not about competition.

People thinks the ratings bring competition in custom. That's wrong : You won't gain or lose point by playing fair games. It's really about that.

-_V_- wrote:
But no need for a grade system to tell you're a bit better than some others.
I had way more fun when i didn't care at all for the ranking.

I will take the setons players as example because they do that a lot, but it's general :
Even without any ranking, they want to prove their are better. They want to win the game. Asking for a "noob" to give their base and leave, saying that you win your side but the game is lost because the others are incompetent,..... are proofs of that.
And saying that the RATING system avoid them to learn while doing all this...

The real players that doesn't care about competition play BOs games, ressources X2, or survivals,.... And they really don't care about rating (but let's wait for a survival time-ladder and it will change
All the others are in some way competitive.

Maybe the rating doesn't please some people because it faces them to their lack of "skill", but they demand reward for how well they play, with or without.

Again, it's hypocrite to say that you don't need a rating system but want "only noob" or "no noobs" in a game.

And you said that you want to be for fun but have troubles finding people that want to play with a low quality ? Then comply to their demand to balance the game !
You don't seems to care about it as long as you play (for fun), so...

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 14:30

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T14:19:49+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Should I post each time the log after a lobby crashed ? Cause that, I can do, no problem.

The most useful would be to gather these people having nil problems in a big test together.

First, determinate why they are nil,
second, see if I can solve it server-side,
third, if it's not possible to solve it, try to detect it before it become a problem.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 14:19

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T14:17:03+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
You seems to have a lot of crash problems. You should really start a debugging session so I can replicate the issues (look at tech forum).

Yeah that day was pretty bad. But most likely it's due to people having connection issues (nil, timeout).
It rarely (never ?) happens with people who join and everything is green. During those rehosts, i tried to look in the log file but didn't see anything fucked up like the time you had unreadable ip in the log.

Should I post each time the log after a lobby crashed ? Cause that, I can do, no problem.

-_V_- wrote:
People play "for fun" but care about the rating ? If they really play for fun, the rating shouldn't matter at all.
It's hypocrite to say that everybody in custom play for fun.
Most (all?) of them play for winning, and most of them care about their rating.

For sure not everybody plays for fun, and exactly, most people care about rating , which is undoubtedly a source for never ending team-balance discussions.

For those who really need a rating over the other ones, they can play ladder. That is exactly why it's called this way.
You can play for fun in custom, which is not incompatible with some competition where you can simply get the satisfaction of beating your opponent. But no need for a grade system to tell you're a bit better than some others.

I had way more fun when i didn't care at all for the ranking. I admit I'm weak, now I care a bit (which is already too much) cause I want my t4 avatar back . I don't think I'm the only weak one around ,who would probably play more games no matter what the teams are, if ranking was not applied to custom.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 14:17

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T12:37:47+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Agree with ur def, but we didn't struggle because of that. Putting aside the crashes and rehost problems,

You seems to have a lot of crash problems. You should really start a debugging session so I can replicate the issues (look at tech forum).
I can't do anything if I can't replicate the issue easily and for sure.
Right now (well, I give up, but just before), it's
- "it's maybe that"
- Try a fix
- Wait 20/30 min in a lobby to see if it crashs

That's no a proper way to fix an issue. I can't spend 30 min to see if some fix works or not.

-_V_- wrote:
BTW the ranking is really not helping people to play "just for fun". You might want to consider to keep it for the ladder only.

People play "for fun" but care about the rating ? If they really play for fun, the rating shouldn't matter at all.
It's hypocrite to say that everybody in custom play for fun.
Most (all?) of them play for winning, and most of them care about their rating.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 12:37

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T12:30:49+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
So it's you using it in a role it doesn't meant to be.

Fine then. I just hope people will use it in the way it was intended too. If you smell scepticism here, u may not be wrong. I can foresee the wrong mental shortcuts some will take . Let's hope i'm wrong.

So it was you and galactic against people you know ? Then they know better and would have ignore the %.

If it's was you+galactic VS random guys you don't know about AND the game quality was low, that's the exact definition of what stacking is. The tool is here to avoid it, so no surprise you were struggling.

Agree with ur def, but we didn't struggle because of that. Putting aside the crashes and rehost problems, the issue was they only based their logic on the rating for this one (it was at that time the update with the % was being released, so it wasn't really the culprit). Just an example how bad the situation can be with the rating already, and therefore I fear the situation will be even worse with the %.

You can't blame people to not want to play games they have few chances to win.

Completely, although when i was a shit player, I was hoping to play those games against better ones to copy them and ultimately get better my way.
As another one said previously, the jackass attitude and the intolerance of "noobishness" jumps in when you acquire some "level".

And I'm not saying it's only you, but I had a lot of complain of people saying that seton players were stacking and that it was not enjoyable. It was way before that game quality %.

That's true. I know some people say Im stacking bla bla bla (more like a compliment actually when it's due to one player or two players who happen to play together) but I didn't take what you said personally here anyway. Actually IF the system happens to work nicely it would help proving the contrary .

The reality is, too many good players left so it's almost all the time a mix between average and good players, hence the balancing issues.

BTW the ranking is really not helping people to play "just for fun". You might want to consider to keep it for the ladder only.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 12:30

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T11:41:09+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
And I simply took some concrete examples (just like providing replays when it comes to balance arguments) to illustrate my concerns.

Except that you don't seem to understand what this is about.
Your example take people you know in a very specific case.

In than case, it's logical that your brain is better than any statistical tool can be.

But that's not the purpose of it. Read the wiki. Quoting it :

it's only there to help you determine the overall balance in a totally random situation !

It's meant to help people balancing random people (that they don't know about) in various situations. It give you the best "start" possible to help balancing.
Then if someone is better near a sea, it's his choice to go there or not.

So it's you using it in a role it doesn't meant to be.

Yesterday, we struggled a lot (we literally spent more than FIVE hours in lobby and rehosts)to have ONE decent game because players felt the game was stacked.
It was me and galac on one side versus what seemed to be random noobs according to the ratings.

So it was you and galactic against people you know ? Then they know better and would have ignore the %.

If it's was you+galactic VS random guys you don't know about AND the game quality was low, that's the exact definition of what stacking is. The tool is here to avoid it, so no surprise you were struggling.

You can't blame people to not want to play games they have few chances to win.

And I'm not saying it's only you, but I had a lot of complain of people saying that seton players were stacking and that it was not enjoyable. It was way before that game quality %.

Yesterday, I saw a Seton game (4v4, full) going from 70% (excellent balance) to 10% before it starts.
I know that the position matter, blabla, but I don't think that the drop was completely irrelevant. I didn't checked the outcome of the game or the replay, but I would be surprise if it was not a no-game.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 11:41

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T11:33:43+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
At least put it inside the game lobby and not outside. It would be easier for people that it's quite not relevant.

Read the OP ?

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 11:33

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T10:45:13+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
Scenarii is not the English plural of scenario (hint: Scenarios).

Okiiie, really , should we go into that? lol. If only the etymology of the word was not english, oh wait...
Hint :

Noun
scenarii pl
(nonstandard, rare) Plural form of scenario.

But you could write it with a single final "i". Fair enough . Are we good ?

Also, we're not here to deal with all the random edge cases you can throw at us. We'd never get anything done in that case.

So you acknowledge, it's not possible to get a fairly accurate %. For now it's like a big buzzing warning in the game list. It's pretty "scary" as it is. At least put it inside the game lobby and not outside. It would be easier for people that it's quite not relevant.

I have my concerns over it, but they're easily addressed. Yours, however, seem like needless nitpicking.

.
Hardly nitpicking. Really not my intention to despise some hard work just for the sake of it, quite the contrary. I'm merely expressing my deep concerns and doubts about how this could have a negative impact on the game. And I simply took some concrete examples (just like providing replays when it comes to balance arguments) to illustrate my concerns.

What are your concerns btw ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 10:45

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T10:21:47+02:00

Scenarii is not the English plural of scenario (hint: Scenarios).

Also, we're not here to deal with all the random edge cases you can throw at us. We'd never get anything done in that case.
It's here as a guide for how balanced a game is based on the players inside it, nothing more.

If you want to join a game and see that it is unbalanced, you can hover your mouse over the player list and see who's inside it.

If you don't think it's valid, you can just ignore it.
I have my concerns over it, but they're easily addressed. Yours, however, seem like needless nitpicking.

In the end, people will either pay attention to it or they won't. It's worth a try to implement.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 15 May 2012, 10:21

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T09:52:40+02:00

Both.

But then ultimately, you and I agree that the % you induced is not the way to do it either.

Unless of course you can guarantee that the % will be reflective of the truth according to all the factors that are relevant.
You failed to answer my question : "Will you cater for all those scenarii ? "

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 09:52

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T09:50:42+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Once again if the admitted purpose is to "warn" players about a potential stacked game, solve the problem at its source, and offer some structure so that players improve. Way more positive and constructive.

If you want people to come to your games and help them improve their gameplay, you should first stop being rude to them, that will help. The problem is probably not the ratings or the game quality, but the people inside these games.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 15 May 2012, 09:50

Re: If you want game quality and Best team composition insid

2012-05-15T09:40:44+02:00

I talk from real experiences, so therefore seton's in *my* case.
But this is applicable for **OTHER** maps as well. Stop being so narrow minded each time you see the ugly "seton" word

And no it's not confirming it, it drives them into error more than anything else.

I agree that it's a tool that you may or not use, but that's asking too much from people to ignore it.
You could also ask them to ignore the rating => fail
We are still dealing with people who for instance the 500ms ping setup of the game => fail

So let's not assume people are smart enough to use only their brain once they have a huge % bs value next to the game title.

Once again if the admitted purpose is to "warn" players about a potential stacked game, solve the problem at its source, and offer some structure so that players improve. Way more positive and constructive.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 09:40