Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T16:22:52+02:00

keyser wrote:
i am interested to know what's your opinion about this replay.
Do you think there was abuse on the micro of the bomber ?
(it's in order to understand at which extendent we should nerf/change the way of microing bomber)

In my opinion it is abuse, because you hovered the bomber to change his direction and kill the hydrobuilding engy in the second base.

Otherwise slowing down the bomber to choose targets in third base is fine imo, because it would behave like this if your command would just end there.

I know the difference is not the clearest in the world, but i would call it abuse if you hover the bomber either to change its angle or throw multiple bombs.

Statistics: Posted by Mephi — 10 Jan 2016, 16:22

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T16:08:16+02:00

i am interested to know what's your opinion about this replay.
Do you think there was abuse on the micro of the bomber ?
(it's in order to understand at which extendent we should nerf/change the way of microing bomber)

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 10 Jan 2016, 16:08

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T11:52:19+02:00

JaggedAppliance wrote:
If I'm wrong or left something out please correct me.

JaggedAppliance wrote:
When he sees the bomber he should build 4aas like he did and then a land scout so that he can see the bomber and dodge with his engineers.

you should build the landscout first ^^

/me hides

Statistics: Posted by Mephi — 10 Jan 2016, 11:52

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T11:36:20+02:00

That's strong cheese for sure but Ti_Xi didn't react correctly. If I'm playing vs a sera i would be wary of first bomber, especially vs some players, and go for an early land scout. He didn't but ok, he didn't expect it on this map. When he sees the bomber he should build 4aas like he did and then a land scout so that he can see the bomber and dodge with his engineers. He should also have targeted the bomber with his aa so that they follow it and he knows roughly where it is. His factory and commander go idle for a while when he should be getting a scout and a couple labs to raid. That idle time is why he lost imo. If you don't exploit your land advantage then you'll lose more or less. When pgens are getting hoverbombed you can also repair them enough so they survive the next drop. He could even raid with the aas as they can toggle to shoot ground units. His pgens were also quite close together.

It's hard to counter but first bomber on ladder isn't very common atm in my experience so people don't have much practice in dealing with it.

If I'm wrong or left something out please correct me.

Oh and I think someone said before that you can't do hovermicro with inties. That is incorrect, you can.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 10 Jan 2016, 11:36

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T10:24:34+02:00

Using something like this as an example

content.faforever.com/faf/vault/replay_vault/replay.php?id=4288073

(Zlo vs ti_xi 1v1 ladder)

What exactly would the "counter" be?

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 10 Jan 2016, 10:24

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T10:11:28+02:00

briang wrote:
Clearly your ideas on the direction of the game aren't in line with the rest of FAF. If the learning curve is something that bothers you it is very obvious that Supreme Commander isn't the game for you.

Indeed

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 10 Jan 2016, 10:11

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T05:09:34+02:00

Clearly your ideas on the direction of the game aren't in line with the rest of FAF. If the learning curve is something that bothers you it is very obvious that Supreme Commander isn't the game for you.

Statistics: Posted by briang — 10 Jan 2016, 05:09

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-10T03:19:20+02:00

Zock wrote:
A large amount of people getting frustrated, some to the point where they stop playing, is not desireable. This game will die without new players, while we don't want to reduce the game to appeal to everyone and keep its complexity, game mechanics that add more frustration than complexity and choices to the game are bad in the end.

Reporting as a frustrated player that stopped playing.

I stopped playing in November and have so far successfully not returned to FAF. The 'return on investment' for playing this game is just too low. You have to deal with a lot of overcomplicated mechanics, and I only see patches that add more features or complexity. I have to invest so much learning and pointless micro. Investing the same learning time in other games gets me a much bigger return in terms of fun... Which is a shame because this game has very nice core mechanics and a great epic feel.

Since November I have advanced a league in Starcraft 2, and close to a second
In Assassins Creed I can now do full missions without being detected

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 10 Jan 2016, 03:19

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-09T16:43:20+02:00

briang wrote:
V when was the last time you even played the game?

When i got really too fed up with the BS that is going on with the so called balance and when you guys cancerized setons to no tomorrow ?

But hardly relevant to the fact that the hoverbombing shit i'ts long due for the fuckin fix

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 09 Jan 2016, 16:43

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-09T15:47:49+02:00

Zock wrote:
A large amount of people getting frustrated, some to the point where they stop playing, is not desireable. This game will die without new players, while we don't want to reduce the game to appeal to everyone and keep its complexity, game mechanics that add more frustration than complexity and choices to the game are bad in the end.

However i'll always be reluctant to just removing options and possibilities from the game, no matter if these are micro or strategy. In some cases it turns out to be necessary though.

There will be a smaller patch mostly dedicated to first bomber and hoverbombing before the t3 patch we've been working on for the last months, see more here viewtopic.php?f=67&t=10692&p=117240#p117240

My personal opinion on hoverbombing is that the ability to micro things adds to the game, and options are always good. The reward needs to stay in line with the cost (which is not only mass but also apm, attention, knowledge and more) and it needs a reasonable counter though. This is not the case for t4 bomber hovering outside of SAM range in example.

Most times people talk about hoverbombing, they think about first bombers hoverbombing. First bombers might be a problem, they might not be, just as hoverbombing, but both together are significantly more powerful than each on its own. This doesn't mean it is OP - it isn't. For good players that know how to counter it. However the amount of knowledge and skill required to counter a first bomber is bigger than what you need to micro a bomber, making it a big problem for new players, and in my opinion, micro should be used to give you small advantages, you should not be forced to micro your engies to just stay even in the game. Or be forced to micro at all. Micro is great, and i am against reducing micro in the game, but it should be optional and up to every player if he wants and likes to do it or not.

This does not reflect what will be in the next patch, this will be not only decided by me but the balance team and ultimately the feedback and arguments of everyone.

thank you zock. very well reasoned post that finally takes into account the other side of the argument rather than ignoring it altogether as though it's not a direct cause for the diminishing playerbase or that that isn't a problem.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 09 Jan 2016, 15:47

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-09T12:45:31+02:00

V when was the last time you even played the game?

Statistics: Posted by briang — 09 Jan 2016, 12:45

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-09T12:25:53+02:00

FINALLY something is done about that utter shit!

If only I could vote 1000 times yes on the poll!

PLus to the clowns advocating micro to legitimate (well try) an obvious exploit of the engine, there's still micro to be done on bomber, much micro.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 09 Jan 2016, 12:25

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-08T22:00:38+02:00

While I agree micro options should be plenty, I find hover bombing a bad mechanic. The only plus side you can assign to it is that it injects micro in bomber play, but on all other fronts it sucks (not intented, not in spirit of the unit's design, looks bad, not intuitive, not documented in game, etc...).
So I'd say scratch hoverbombing and replace it with a cool micro mechanic (eg manually launch defensive flare with long reload, ...)

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 08 Jan 2016, 22:00

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-08T21:18:59+02:00

Mechsangoku wrote:
If neither you nor the air player have an air factory, you're playing the game wrong. This is like complaining that you got killed by spam when you made no tanks.

I said, stop the troll bullshit, but seems you are just too imature. Does that mean all team players must go first air and first intie ?
Or maybe just the air player, first air and first intie, killing his eco for the 3 first minutes just in case ?
Or yes, scouts ? By the time the opp air player has been scout, you already have the bomber on your ass...

And yes hoverbombing does make your AA miss more shots than normal, so you may drop 2 bombs and die, while only dropping 1 and die in straight lines.

My personal opinion on hoverbombing is that the ability to micro things adds to the game, and options are always good. The reward needs to stay in line with the cost

Completly agree with you here. Micro is good, but should not give a too great advantage. Just enought to make you win a battle, but no rampage another player

Have you bothered to read anything else I wrote?

And yes hoverbombing does make your AA miss more shots than normal, so you may drop 2 bombs and die, while only dropping 1 and die in straight lines.

Erm, hoverbomber makes it drop bombs faster, so measurements based on bomb dropping is completely useless, the right one to look at is the time from you seeing it to it being dead, and you will find that if you properly counter a bomber it is alive for max 10, 15 seconds

Does that mean all team players must go first air and first intie ?
Or maybe just the air player, first air and first intie, killing his eco for the 3 first minutes just in case ?

Re: Return to the Dark Side: Hoverbombing

2016-01-08T20:12:01+02:00

If neither you nor the air player have an air factory, you're playing the game wrong. This is like complaining that you got killed by spam when you made no tanks.

I said, stop the troll bullshit, but seems you are just too imature. Does that mean all team players must go first air and first intie ?
Or maybe just the air player, first air and first intie, killing his eco for the 3 first minutes just in case ?
Or yes, scouts ? By the time the opp air player has been scout, you already have the bomber on your ass...

And yes hoverbombing does make your AA miss more shots than normal, so you may drop 2 bombs and die, while only dropping 1 and die in straight lines.

My personal opinion on hoverbombing is that the ability to micro things adds to the game, and options are always good. The reward needs to stay in line with the cost

Completly agree with you here. Micro is good, but should not give a too great advantage. Just enought to make you win a battle, but no rampage another player

Statistics: Posted by Mechsangoku — 08 Jan 2016, 20:12