Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-09T09:59:33+02:00

Valki wrote:
When dealing with engineers and raiders, 1 is usually the number. You usually send 1 engineer to build a mex, radar, or PD. When raiding you often split off 1 unit from your main force, a Mantis at T1 or a brick at T3, you don't consciously decide to invest 600 mass into a raid.

Sorry, but this is kinda... wrong
You can go and see for yourself how many tanks a lot higher rated players can throw away in raids/engagements. And later on in the game its not really about killing your opponent mexes but killing his army too and sucking up the reclime.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 09 Aug 2015, 09:59

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-09T09:29:06+02:00

speed2 wrote:
Im using higher tech engies every game and they do so much better than T1.
Not getting stucked, can build anything I want, good build power without need to send milion of them (we back at engies getting stucked and blocking your whole base).

yea I do the same, switch to T2 engi build power spam ASAP combine with hives

hundreds of t1 engies in base is so annoying

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 09 Aug 2015, 09:29

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-09T08:39:52+02:00

Im using higher tech engies every game and they do so much better than T1.
Not getting stucked, can build anything I want, good build power without need to send milion of them (we back at engies getting stucked and blocking your whole base).

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 09 Aug 2015, 08:39

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-09T04:15:44+02:00

t1 engies are just cheaper..you could also probably reclaim almost half the difference in the same time

And also 2 buttons quicker for the most part

Statistics: Posted by user42 — 09 Aug 2015, 04:15

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T19:11:55+02:00

I don't mind what other people are doing, but I would like all engineer to be more or less equally viable. I tend to include engineers of the currents factory production level in the circulation. I like to have a comparatively clean base and using T2 (or T3) engineers significantly reduces clutter. (Yes, I'm ranked 620 but: shush )

However, I felt that my T2 engineers were dying pretty quickly where T1 engineers would more often get a build done while under fire. (I don't get to T3 much btw) Seeing this topic, I did the math, and yes... T2/T3 engineers are way too fragile.

Increasing T2 and T3 engineer hitpoints (to T2: 740 hp and T3: 1520 hp) would provide the following direct benefits:

A well-micro'd T2 engineer can reclaim a T1 tank before it is destroyed.
A T2 engineer can build a point defense before it is destroyed by a T1 engineer.

T1 engineers are still easier to get, and don't require a T2 or T3 factory to build. But now, there is an actual advantage to using T2/T3 engineers. A T2 engineer is more likely to get the job done in dangerous situations. Right now, T2 and T3 engineers are just too juicy targets.

Mad`Mozart wrote:
PS oh and Valki, you forgot to include mass cost per unit in your calculation. Pretty sure you cant compare t1 engie + t1 tank cost vs t2 engie + t2 tank etc.

When dealing with engineers and raiders, 1 is usually the number. You usually send 1 engineer to build a mex, radar, or PD. When raiding you often split off 1 unit from your main force, a Mantis at T1 or a brick at T3, you don't consciously decide to invest 600 mass into a raid.

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 08 Aug 2015, 19:11

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T19:10:39+02:00

Cuddles wrote:
SetonsGrandPa wrote:or make tons of t1 engies to spam t3 engies... oh wait. Or make engy station usefull ffs

Not everyone has station though, although the two factions without them has had buffs to the engineers.

I don't see stations built in 1v1 i'm not sure why? probably because the engineers are more efficient.

Valki, nice!

Here is a post from 2013 on topic viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3059 with posts from some of the top players.

hm and not everyone has ARAS...

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 08 Aug 2015, 19:10

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T18:46:49+02:00

You forget that t1 engies is the easiest way to get build power. Like that engy dedicated first factory in most games, where you put it to infinite engy loop and forget. Or build more t1 facs cause well, you have t1 engies around doing whatever you ordered them to do (patrol, reclaim, assisting fac, etc) so you select one and you can only build t1 fac.

Its simply convenient and very easy way to get build power. I only see 2 ways stopping people spam t1 engies: either make it very inefficient or absurdly overcomplicate it. Dont even know why you have problems with t1 engies in the first place since engiemod.

PS oh and Valki, you forgot to include mass cost per unit in your calculation. Pretty sure you cant compare t1 engie + t1 tank cost vs t2 engie + t2 tank etc.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 08 Aug 2015, 18:46

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T18:29:08+02:00

SetonsGrandPa wrote:
or make tons of t1 engies to spam t3 engies... oh wait. Or make engy station usefull ffs

Not everyone has station though, although the two factions without them has had buffs to the engineers.

I don't see stations built in 1v1 i'm not sure why? probably because the engineers are more efficient.

Valki, nice!

Here is a post from 2013 on topic viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3059 with posts from some of the top players.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 08 Aug 2015, 18:29

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T15:49:34+02:00

or make tons of t1 engies to spam t3 engies... oh wait. Or make engy station usefull ffs

Statistics: Posted by justmakenewgame — 08 Aug 2015, 15:49

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T15:34:15+02:00

JaggedAppliance wrote:
Is having lots of t1 engies everywhere a problem that needs to be solved? I don't really see why.

1) units gets stuck
2) lags like hell

Existing buffs are nice, but to make higher tier engies you need to make higher tier factory and that is probably main reason why no one likes to spam t3 engies...

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 08 Aug 2015, 15:34

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T14:35:30+02:00

Is having lots of t1 engies everywhere a problem that needs to be solved? I don't really see why.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 08 Aug 2015, 14:35

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T13:35:39+02:00

I have averaged the dps of the main 'tanks' at each tier (of all factions) and calculated the average survival time of several units per tier. I calculated the average survival time of the main tanks, the mobile anti-air units, and the engineers.

It does indeed show a significant drops in engineer survival time at higher tiers.

T1: Average tank dps = 25.5
Heaviest Tank: 9.7 seconds
Anti-air: 7.2 seconds
Engineer: 5.3 seconds

T2: Average tank dps = 93.5
Heavist Tank: 23.1 seconds
Anti-air: 10.7 seconds
Engineer: 2.9 seconds

T3: Average tank dps = 387.5
Percival overkill on engineer is ignored, using Titan instead of Percival would result in average dps of 329 and 20% higher survival times)
Heaviest Tank: 19.9 seconds
Anti-air: 5.3 seconds
Engineer: 1.4 seconds

Taking into consideration overkill, T1 engineers are in fact superior against single-target damage T3 units. Less buildpower is killed per second when T3 units attack T1 engineers than T3 engineers.

Spoiler: show

INCREASING ENGINEER HP
If we would take the survival time relation of T1 Anti-Air and T1 Engineer and say that relation should be used for T2 and T3 engineers, then the average survival time of an engineer would be 74% of the survival time of anti-air.

This would result in the following hitpoint values:

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 08 Aug 2015, 13:35

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T13:28:02+02:00

not an idea without any merit, i'd say.

Statistics: Posted by Lionhardt — 08 Aug 2015, 13:28

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T11:03:56+02:00

so what about being able to build higher tech level engi at all time, but not being able to build the appropriate tech level buildings without having an HQ.

Just brainstorming guys, don't shoot me.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 08 Aug 2015, 11:03

Re: Engy-mod

2015-08-08T10:20:08+02:00

1000 units as unit limit, t1 engies provide the best build power per unit costs, they can be built from every factory
while these reasons exists, it's unlikely that many people will switch to t2/t3 engy spam

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 08 Aug 2015, 10:20