Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-21T00:15:47+02:00

well its no big deal obviously but i just thought it was funny you use that word. from other posts of yours i've seen, you know the game really well. maybe for some ta/starcraft/whatever player it makes sense, but from you it's odd. but whatever - didn't mean to annoy you, glhf

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 21 Sep 2015, 00:15

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-20T20:46:59+02:00

Anihilnine wrote:
rxnnxs wrote:it has to be said, thats its only showing added metal. metal thats lying around from the start is not shown

omg "metal" really? its mass dude. and it shows the start mass as well.

well could you please explain me the difference?
mass has the mass effect or what?
boy, how could i write metal. pah, i am a nooob. i am not even allowed to write metal when it is mass. MASS!!!
and never say power instead of energy. and who knows, is it AC or DC?
maybe you know the answer.

but please, please tell me whats the difference is, because any noob would have to know this difference as the number 1 of the "what you should know".

p.s.: i guess you were joking so i overreacted and you did not.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 20 Sep 2015, 20:46

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-20T13:51:27+02:00

They hide small value mass. They show mass with a value of a certain threshold. The behavior is the same for all maps and times etc. The threshold was chosen arbitrarily. One consideration is showing a LOT of points creates a performance issue. Also a visual issue.

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 20 Sep 2015, 13:51

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-20T13:35:21+02:00

ZLO_RD wrote:
It does show some big rocks, but never shows small ones, and some of them are really hard to find sometimes (for example map melanholy hill or something like that)

^ This is correct. I thought the mass was automatically displayed if it exists. Does it have to be "programmed" in for each and every map for each individual piece of mass? I was operating under the assumption that if the mass was in the map data then it would be displayed. I tested on a couple of maps just to be sure.

Statistics: Posted by Purelukk — 20 Sep 2015, 13:35

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-20T12:55:16+02:00

It does show some big rocks, but never shows small ones, and some of them are really hard to find sometimes (for example map melanholy hill or something like that)

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 20 Sep 2015, 12:55

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-20T09:02:12+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
it has to be said, thats its only showing added metal. metal thats lying around from the start is not shown

omg "metal" really? its mass dude. and it shows the start mass as well.

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 20 Sep 2015, 09:02

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-19T23:42:15+02:00

yep thats right, thanks,
and ctrl&alt are only used for formation, with shift its queued.

it has to be said, thats its only showing added metal. metal thats lying around from the start is not shown

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 19 Sep 2015, 23:42

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-18T13:36:47+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
- use ctrl+alt+shift to attack as a formation
- press alt+ctrl+shift to see where new mass is lying around and with what amount

thats the same keybinding in different order....you just need to press ctrl+shift for reclaim overlay

Statistics: Posted by Hascins — 18 Sep 2015, 13:36

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-18T12:30:34+02:00

great thread, i try to give some more points:
- how is hoverbomb done?
- shift is used for queuing all stuff
- use alt + rightclick to attack a sport when using the factory
- use ctrl+alt+shift to attack as a formation
- press alt+ctrl+shift to see where new mass is lying around and with what amount
- describe how to make a build template
- describe how to make a factory template
- describe that before all those helpers built in right now have to be enabled first:
i.e.: all of GAZ_UI is built in, but is deactivated: if you want to drag around your build queue in factory, that has to be enabled!
- split command (key "G") and when it can be used best
- tactics that are common and a beginner even would not see after he is dead.. i.e. TML snipe and other snipes..
- the bonus that comes with building stuff besides each other. even for artillery... but not for PD.. :-/
- what unit is used for what and where it is weak
-how to start and how to focus on land or air when in team games slots are made for them

and for those who do not have much time but wanna test the units:
alt+F2 to create units in sandbox with cheat enabled

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 18 Sep 2015, 12:30

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-18T11:51:57+02:00

One thing I've been missing in FAF that's a major staple of modern online gaming is a simple popup that asks how familliar you are with the game/genre which defines what level (rating) you start at.

A simple example:

Newbie - Close to no online RTS experience, not familliar with TA, SupCom/FA, PA (They have flux eco right? ) -> 0 rated
Beginner - Some online RTS experience, not familliar with TA, SupCom/FA, PA -> 200 rated
Intermediate - Plenty of online RTS experience, familliar with TA, SupCom/FA, PA -> 400 rated
Veteran - Lots of online RTS experience, especially with TA, SupCom/FA, PA -> 600 rated

Give an icon next to their name or w/e corresponding with each one for their first 25 games so they can be identified, match them with iconned players in ladder or with similar rated players if none are available. Don't allow iconned players to dip into negative rating.

I think this would make a huge difference in accessability for new players.

Also I think I will start hosting new player only games together with some other midrated player who will mostly be skirmishing with me (non seriously, probably both in airslot and mumble together) and focus on giving advice and gameplay tips to our new player allies while bailing them out of trouble.

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 18 Sep 2015, 11:51

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-18T11:21:21+02:00

Mission like tutorials might come soon (tm)

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 18 Sep 2015, 11:21

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-18T10:54:49+02:00

just DO IT!

(no seriously forum posts about this are mostly useless, the problems of newbies have been discussed over and over, and the discussion hasn't helped a hell of alot, it was always single people like the person who made the wiki-tutorial (which is great) )

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 18 Sep 2015, 10:54

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-09-17T22:26:39+02:00

I came into FAF just two weeks ago thanks to Gyle. I am an old FA player but thought the online aspect died with GPG. If I had not stumbled onto Gyle’s youtube casts I would not be here, so big shoutout to him and all the casters who are doing excellent PR work for the FAF community. They keep bringing traffic to FAF, now we need to find a way to make it immediately playable and fun so they hang around and enjoy the game with us.

I think we can all agree that FA is an amazing game. It has had us all hooked for close to ten years now. We have a great product to work with and it will do a lot of our work for us (provided we don’t mess it up).

There are some really great ideas here and a couple of very scary ones. The following are some of them and my thoughts on them from a new player perspective.

Great Ideas:

-Lobby intro for new players
- Let them know that this site is fully player developed and a continuous work in progress.
-I have seen several posts where I have to wonder if these people (some of the more experienced players in particular) think that they are talking to Blizzard Entertainment or something. WTF?
- Include a “play now” button of some kind.
- Ask the player what they want to do: play vs AI, sandbox, vs other players, and then walk them through how to accomplish this or just do it for them if that’s feasible.
- Be honest about what is working and what is still being developed
- Consider taking down/disabling things that are not being worked on (not a priority) and don’t function (livestreams tab for instance).
- Inform them of lobby chat functions they may find helpful: !streams, !casts, etc.
- If you were able to talk to a good sampling of gamers who came to FAF played a few games and then left never to return I bet you would find that they were simply led in the wrong direction by the interface. By the time they find FAF, download it and get it up and running they just want to play. Upon first seeing the FAF interface the only obvious way to play immediately is to click on the 1 vs 1 automatch in the top left hand corner of the find games tab or the popup that shows up at the bottom of the screen telling you “a player of your skill level is currently searching for a 1v1 game”. So they click on one of these a couple of times, lose a few games and say “f*** this”.

-Tutorial Campaign Mission
- Scripted mission where the player is directed by an avatar (drill sergeant). Remember the vanilla supcom opening tutorial? Something like that but bigger/better.
- I am picturing a fairly challenging scenario (timed? “under the gun”) where you build a startup base (with a proper build order as directed by the drill sergeant), take/defend outlying mexes, protect expanding engineers (respond when they get sniped), build forward firebases and take objectives (establishing and maintaining map control) that open up the map and kick off counterattacks, and ultimately achieve some final objective all while continuously eco’ing up and constantly reclaiming. The final objective might require the completion of an experimental or two for success.
- He (drill sergeant) could walk the player through the engy mod: upgrading one fac to HQ and subsequent factories to standard T2, building straight to T2 once an HQ is established. I still see this misused quite frequently.
- He could tell the player to “destroy one of those firebases” when they have two to choose from. One contains a T2 HQ land factory and the other a standard T2 land factory. After they kill one the drill sergeant explains why they either chose the correct one (HQ) or the wrong one (reg T2) to illustrate the ramifications of losing your HQ.

-Overcharge/Energy Storage – seems like a very simple tooltip when you mouse over the overcharge button would fix this.

-Revamp how Ladder System handles new players
- The current system is “punishing” the player for being new by setting their default rating arbitrarily high. This practically ensures that fun is not part of the equation for the first few games. I believe that this is a crucial mistake in terms of player retention.
- Why not come at it from the exact opposite direction and start them out on the low end (rating starts at zero) so they are met with a little bit of success (still no guarantee) in the beginning?
-It is pretty straightforward. Winning is fun, losing is not. In order to “hook” the new player FAF must ensure that fun is the first thing they experience.

-Keep the “Help” section up to date and functioning (might consider renaming it “new players” or something). Sheppy posted a very nice guide titled “Help, I’m new!” back in 2013. This is the first place I went when I got here and I found it very helpful albeit a little aged. I think it’s a natural magnet for new players but it seems to have lost some functionality over the years. In particular all of the wiki links are inactive or return errors.

-Create a “New Player Feedback” sticky front and center in the forums
- Pretty straightforward, tell them we are glad they are here, please let us know what we can do to enhance the experience for new players. You will get some garbage and trolling, but also some good feedback and a fresh point of view.

-Create an “Advice from the Pros” thread
- “Hey we were once new just like you. Now we are old pros. So just how did we do that?”
- I am not really qualified to fill in the blanks here. I can tell you what I am doing/have done to try to get better:
- Get keybound/learn hotbuild asap (In fact I don’t recommend playing until you get hotbuild setup. Don’t develop bad habits or get used to less than optimal gameplay)
- Play a game then watch the replay, rinse, repeat. While watching the replay ask myself:
- What did you do wrong?
- Most critically: what did you completely miss?
- I almost always see a point during the game where I had the advantage and didn’t realize it. If I had pressed I probably would have won. Can you say scouting?
- Watch livestreams when possible. You can learn a ton of great little gems here.
- Did you know you can upgrade all of your mass extractors to T2 at one time, pause them all, and have a group of engys run around and assist them one at a time with very little effect on your economy? They come off of pause as soon as the engys get them to T2. Thanks Zock! Learned that from his stream.

-First person POV dual “shoutcasts”
- The tutorials are very informative and a great idea. However doing them through the replay system is fairly cumbersome and hard to keep up with.
- I would love to see a first person POV dual cast with Gyle and the player where Gyle could talk with the player about what they are doing on screen and what prompted them to do it (why did you decide to go T2 air at that moment?). Pause the replay if necessary and talk about things like expanding, eco’ing, upgrading, T2 & T3 transitions, map strategy, on and on.
- By first person POV I mean:
- A recorded stream of a game (probably 1v1 ladder would be best for training purposes) where we can see the players interface, mouse movements/clicks, and actions throughout the game.
- Gyle and the player sit down and watch/discuss it together after the fact, thus allowing pauses etc.
- Not entertainment, a learning tool.

-Hotbuild + Hotbuild Extra Buldings:
- Incorporate the extra buildings mod into Hotbuild by default
- Have default keybinds preset
- Obviously you could change them if you so desire but no need for the new player to research hotbuild and manually map each key.

Scary Ideas:

-Disabling flux economy or removing power requirements etc. I think it is moving in the wrong direction when we talk about changing the game to make it easier for newer players. We would be flirting with the event horizon that swallowed SupCom2. I bet if you could talk to Chris Taylor about it he would advise: “Just don’t do it, don’t even think about it.” What makes the game great is also what makes it difficult and creates such a steep learning curve. Don’t kill what you love in an attempt to get others to love it.

The Community:
-As with any online multiplayer game the primary strength and weakness of the game is the player community. Trying to fully control it is like herding cats. Near to impossible and will drive you insane in the long run. The best thing we can do is lead by example and tamp down the crazy when and where possible.
- There are some simply amazing and talented people who give their time and effort with absolutely no payoff. Many thanks to you all! I won’t even attempt to name you all for fear of leaving someone out.
- From my time in #aeolus and the forums I can say we have some very talented trolls as well. I am always amazed at how practiced and skillful they are at their craft. If I can offer some advice it would be this. !!DO .. NOT .. FEED .. THE .. TROLLS!! When you feed them you not only perpetuate their behavior, you claim ownership and in fact, by default, condone it. The only response is none at all. Nothing pisses a troll off faster than a complete lack of acknowledgement of their existence.

Zock's Questions:

Where are you having difficulties when learning the game?

1.The difference between multiplayer custom and ladder play. In particular custom seems to be ridiculously hard to break into. I still am not entirely sure how to establish a global rating. That is, I know it requires custom rated play but I just don’t get how you are supposed to get started when there is so much intolerance from the player base.
- The following is my experience trying to get in custom games (both Gap Games).
•Game #1 – listed as NOOBS <1000
- Join lobby, first thing in chat “kick all the unrated players” (there were three of us)
- Me: quit lobby
•Game #2 – listed as ALL WELCOME <900
- Join lobby, min or two goes by
- “you have been removed from lobby by host”
Haven’t tried again, doesn’t seem to be much point and I have a fairly low tolerance for this kind of aggravation.

2.How to effectively manage higher tech transitions. The ladder games at my current level rarely go beyond T2 so I am weak in later game transitions.

3.Terminology. I have always hated acronyms because if you don’t know, you just don’t know and others assume that everyone knows.

What things are not clear, what did you find out only after looking for information outside of the game?

-If you define “inside” game to include FAF forums + Wiki then nothing. I have yet to come up with a question (well one but no biggie, added now) that I couldn’t find myself or that someone couldn’t point me in the right direction on (thanks Speed2). There is plenty of information; it is just exceedingly difficult to wade through all of it to find exactly what you need. A bit more organization and categorization might be helpful for ease of use.

What is just annoying?
-Back to my answer from question #1. Global rating. It appears that the majority opinion on players global rating is as follows:
1.>1900 = Pro
2.1000-1899 Noob
3.<1000 not worth the effort to type this out
- We would rather you just delete FAF
-Of the two types of ratings why does global seem to be so much more important to the community?

What do you miss that would make some things easier?
-Can’t think of anything.

Statistics: Posted by Purelukk — 17 Sep 2015, 22:26

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-07-17T14:23:51+02:00

Unbroken wrote:
lots of good feedback

Thanks for your reply. Your suggestion for the ladder matchup system is a bit flawed in my opinion, like it's a weird system to explain to those new players. Also I'm sure the problem can be solved by just altering the current matchup system by matching up people that have not only similar rating but also considering similar amount of games. Your input is very valuable nonetheless, as it underlines the importance of a fix.

Statistics: Posted by pza — 17 Jul 2015, 14:23

Re: Newbies Difficulties

2015-07-16T21:20:23+02:00

Good post unbroken, which is why players should come in rated 0 instead of 1500.

Statistics: Posted by KD7BCH — 16 Jul 2015, 21:20