Forged Alliance Forever

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2014-01-23T08:04:32+02:00

I just played a game of nomads for the first time. 5 versus 5 on thermopolyae.

I managed to win with almost no effort, so I think they are totally overpowered. I can't put my finger on exactly why seeing as I didn't record the game and it was my first one. I'm about to have another match, if my opinion changes I'll report back.

I have a suspicion that their tech 3 artillery is totally overpowered. The moment I built one the 5 enemy commanders started going down like dominoes, and when I zoomed out all I could see was spam coming from the artillery satellite. It was cool, but definitely felt more like an experimental artillery than a tech 3 one. I swear... it was more effective than a mavor!

Also maybe introduce a general nerf to all their experimentals except for the transport so that you can't just end the game by dropping a fatboy on the enemy commanders face. Or keep it the same, but make it so that the experimental transport can only carry the first, cheap and small experimental, as well as any T123 units.

Random note while I'm still talking: the T3 rocket artillery is awesome, but it's skin is borked.

Statistics: Posted by shpxlbh — 23 Jan 2014, 08:04

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-03-07T17:12:12+02:00

All Nomads experimentals rape T3 land because they all fly.

"Oh, you have Bricks? That's cool bro, I'm just gonna drop this giant assault tank inside your shield bubbles and throw a few missile spam tanks behind your base and stuff."

And then you can use all of your experimental Transports as mercies and drop them on top of the enemy commander. Game over, T3 land is still in transit.

Statistics: Posted by MushrooMars — 07 Mar 2013, 17:12

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-03-07T14:51:56+02:00

and by mobile shields :O
you have to build the tmd where you need it and not somewhere in the way (yeah thats new) also it does way less dmg than a normal TML i dunno the exact value

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 07 Mar 2013, 14:51

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-03-07T14:10:11+02:00

Poch wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering if there is a counter to the orbital bombardment upgrade of the ACU ?

The cost is roughly the same as 2 mexes T2 upgrades (with higher energy cost), but if only shields can counter it, it is a little OP, on small maps, no ?

It can be countered bu TMD.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 07 Mar 2013, 14:10

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-03-07T13:23:59+02:00

Hi,

I was wondering if there is a counter to the orbital bombardment upgrade of the ACU ?

The cost is roughly the same as 2 mexes T2 upgrades (with higher energy cost), but if only shields can counter it, it is a little OP, on small maps, no ?

I've attached a replay of me doing some tests with Bricks vs Experimentals, and the results clearly come in favour of Bricks as far as mass effectiveness goes.

IIRC, it the case for all experimentals in game, spider, chicken, colossus... They all get raped by T3 bots mass for mass. (just saying, i do not bring anything constructive for or against your post as i dont know the nomads XP very well ^^)

Statistics: Posted by Poch — 07 Mar 2013, 13:23

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-02T01:24:02+02:00

Thanks for what you do, Nomads are certainly awesome and have many good concepts implemented.

But I still think, that bricks are not cost effective versus anything but Beamers and eager to proove it. I don't think it changed much since 3603. I'm up for sandbox testing with micro anytime I'm online.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 02 Jan 2013, 01:24

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T23:42:27+02:00

Sunny wrote:
Also, I suggest you to make points as I do, and do suggestions, not just to criticize the others' suggestions, just make an attempt to keep the level of discussion. For example, I do a real suggestion about an unused unit, which is t1 tank destroyer, you just criticize my suggestion, not providing anything for the exchange.

I'm sorry if I appear to be rude or offhand with your balance ideas because that is certainly not my intention. I think its fantastic that you're so interested in the nomads! My aim is only to play the devils advocate here, since balancing isn't a case of proposition -> change. Ideas need to be discussed, counters need to be fully thought out, alternatives considered etc etc. I'm just trying to implement some of the thoroughness that has already been applied to every change made in the nomads.

As for making suggestions, I think its probably fair to say that I have made more of those on this forum than anyone else, despite the majority of my balance ideas and issues being carried out via the pm system on FAF. Trust me when I say I am still looking to perfect nomads because as awesome as they are, they will need constant care and attention, just like the other four factions have been getting every patch.

Now back onto topic.

I've attached a replay of me doing some tests with Bricks vs Experimentals, and the results clearly come in favour of Bricks as far as mass effectiveness goes. I also did tests vs half the mass cost of the experimentals, with the aim of providing something more realistic in games since the buildtime for t3 land is far higher. Although I will concede that the micro certainly won't be perfect on either set of forces, I think it is obvious that Bricks are more mass effective.

I also included a quick test of the beamer vs 100 Othuums, just to make obvious the point of it being effective vs units with less range. (You will notice that once in range, the Othuums finish it pretty quick) Its a similar story for Bricks, only the Bricks will always be in range.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 01 Jan 2013, 23:42

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T22:03:45+02:00

Bricks are not cost effective vs ML, Fatboy, GC, I suspect, they are not cost effective vs Sera chicken too. For ML, I'll specifically point you, that you can micro it even to hit heavy t4 with microwave laser (I lost one of games to Grozoth because of the fact), not even being hit.

Also, I suggest you to make points as I do, and do suggestions, not just to criticize the others' suggestions, just make an attempt to keep the level of discussion. For example, I do a real suggestion about an unused unit, which is t1 tank destroyer, you just criticize my suggestion, not providing anything for the exchange.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 01 Jan 2013, 22:03

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T20:55:47+02:00

Ok sheppard just chill please.

Washy the beamer does not hover, it goes underwater (It only hovers over ground )

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 01 Jan 2013, 20:55

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T20:11:26+02:00

1. no replay
2. no replay
3. learn to use it
4. its no GC, it's even weker than ML BUT its costs are like this too

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 01 Jan 2013, 20:11

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T19:18:22+02:00

also, the beamer can hover, that means you can use it to fight against navy units, or get it to the next island even with enemy subs around

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 01 Jan 2013, 19:18

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T18:53:39+02:00

You just need to think about the beamers strengths a bit more, and fighting bricks is not one of them. In fact I think you would struggle to find a land experimental which is cost effective vs bricks.

Try it instead vs t1,t2, and t3 units with less range (Othuums, Harbingers, Titans, Loyalists). You'll quickly find that with some micro it can demolish these units with little or no loss of health. Its a fantastic counter to these units, which imo means it is probably on the overpowered rather than the underpowered side of things. I think this because if you look at counters to the beamer, they are either stationary (t2 pd) or require huge investment to be viable (t3 land fac followed by the most expensive t3 units, or more powerful exp)

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 01 Jan 2013, 18:53

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T18:41:16+02:00

Point T4 Beamer is a bad unit.

vs Bricks, some simple math.
Let's calculate the worst case DPS of 9 Bricks, it's when they all get killed.
It's (375 * 9) / 2 = 1 687.5;
It's going to take 9000 / 2500 * 9 ~ 32 seconds for Beamer to kill Bricks
So they are going to do more than 1600 * 32 = 51 200 damage over this time.

So. Beamer is weak vs T3 bots. Completely not viable, weak like being soft-countered.

Currently, it isn't much of use vs T4 too, because of it's bad range, it needs to get in range get advantage of it's dps.
And dps of 2 beamers (if they win) is going to be 1,5-(2- some number) time of one, as one of the Beamers will be killed in action.
Let's see the rivals.
http://www.fa-nomads.com/db/supcomDB_sh ... 01,INU2007

1. All they have a weapon with better range.
2. All they look like a good option to fight Beamers mass for mass.

As there is an opinion that it's supposed to be a T4 killer, it should have one
SUGGESTION:
Take ONE of 4.
1. Make Beamer incredibly fast. This will make it a good comm-killer and will make it very microable, and will help it chase T4 more effectively.
2. Make it very durable. Give it like + 10k-15k HP.
3. Give it INSANE dps, like 4-5k.
4. Make it faster AND more durable (this way it might become the most OP-ed, I guess, being good vs bots and T4).

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 01 Jan 2013, 18:41

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T18:09:08+02:00

Actually all my points are solely from the experience.

About tank destroyer: yes, this make it more of common tank and less of "cool sniper", but my suggestion is real and can bring currently useless unit to game. Also note that T3 sniper bot doesn't oneshot things as well.

The point that t3 Nomad sub is slower, than t2 destroyers, is a good point but is the only good point, this needs testing. As you see, I'm citing stats and I'm used to be a top 50 player in past, so, as you might guess, I do understand that t3 is more expensive and so on. Probably this is one these cases when there are not that many games played to make evident things evident. Anyway, anything, but t1 + t2, t3 land, t3 air, and with many-many remarks, t2 navy (note torp defenses being or too weak or broken, not cybran cruiser, switched to land dps, note the minimum amount of sheeps and mass for UEF to be in game vs Cybran all-destroyer army, note Sera destroyer's bugged laser and so on), was not actually EVER balanced

So yes, the points are not that important for now. But I still suggest make the subs cheaper and give their huge dps TML(which actually hits ships too, try to micro UEF fleet with shields against) less range for the reasons described above.

EDITED: "The point that t3 Nomad sub is a good point but is the only good point" is fixed to be "he point that t3 Nomad sub is slower, than t2 destroyers, is a good point but is the only good point"

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 01 Jan 2013, 18:09

Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

2013-01-01T12:59:39+02:00

Sunny wrote:
Leave the same dps, but make it fire with projectiles of dmg 100 with plain rate

This wouldn't then be a tank destroyer. It would just be a tank with better range and worse health.

As far as the t3 subs go I really recommend you try them out in game. The main drawback of this t3 navy is that it is expensive to produce, and you don't get nearly as many ships out as the opponent at t2. T3 sera subs as stated are a counter, which is strong evidence in itself that they aren't op since the sera sub nerf a couple of patches ago.

Remember that these subs do not get torp defense, and don't actually have that much health. They are also slower than destroyers. Even just taking 2 destroyers vs one sub, its still not a clear cut victory for the sub, and thats with the destroyer having significant above water dps, combined less cost than a single sub, and not requiring an investment up to t3.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 01 Jan 2013, 12:59