Forged Alliance Forever

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-03T23:07:40+02:00

I'm not annoyed by your many posts. I actually like to see that you're so enthousiastic about the project. It is good to see someone appreciating all the time that has been put in to it. It is also good that you report things like bugs and imbalances. That is really valuable and most of the people don't do that, so thanks for that!

Edit: The same is true for you Apofenas. Thank you too for your feedback!

Statistics: Posted by Brute51 — 03 Jul 2014, 23:07

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-02T21:42:18+02:00

we had small discusion with guys about, how to try host nomads and dont play this un-nomads shit...
what move on what they think is unbalance, wired and can be diferent:

- ACU -> orbital bombard -
something total diferent like others, and make it neednes build shield on all T2 mex on small map. on me opinion it is not problem, but understand that orbital station can be hard to imagine when other fraction(except novax) dont have nothling like that, and is no logical reason for small range when it is from space. it can be counter by tmd but 4 cybran tmd doestn defend it for 100%, styll get +-500dmg, it is expensive, but build shiled on all mexes is more expensive and firing cost only time.

solution: dont fire this rocket from orbital, but get "rocket" upgrade on right arm(same as sacu) and fire it from acu, smaller number of rocket, and neednes to build missile on acu, for some good price (half of tml?), as other acu missile.
=> other acu tml are for mex snipe, this more against moving army (bigger splash, lower dmg), smaller get some price for firing, not only time

-acu -> capacitator
too many function where none know what all it do, but you know about that,

- EMP tanks -> too strong against T3.
against T3 tanks with hight rof one EMP lower dps by cca 35% and in biger number is is more drastic. against perci it doesnt work well because perci recharg hit and fire on moment when is not in stun. but harbringer had lower dps and lose shield.
solution: lower stun against T3 units 0,625->0,5

. . . .

ACU rapid repair had no information in description that it give bonus hp, 3500 is more as + 3000 on T2 and on T2 is write that bringe more maimal HP
______________

I start be worry about im anoying with so many postus, if it stop be helpfull say me, i would try control myself more

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 02 Jul 2014, 21:42

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-02T18:55:57+02:00

Ok that was my point of view, i like to see taht from other it is diferent.

i personal when build it maybe ones on was cunfusing from how ussles it is for me. it decay too fast, and had radar intel only for 35 sec dont say my many.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 02 Jul 2014, 18:55

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-02T18:08:50+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
buff ACU intel probe, when i decide gun or interl, in nealy all gun win. Or better say, i never build intel probe on acu, for small cyrcle intel it is too expensive when scout do that job better, and then cant build gun.

suggestion: when time of radar after cca 35sec decay then decrease cyrcle range of radar and let it be pernament in time when dont use probe again.
suggestion 2: on advance intel probe when visual sensor after cca 35sec decay, then let that cyrcle range as radar, and pernament until dont use probe again
suggestion 2,1: on advance intel probe lower energy cost, 45 000 is too many

Nope. I don't like to move my ACU from my base in general, so I build the intel probe many times more than gun. It also is usefull on water maps where ACU can't do much. At the late game it's cheap scouting.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 02 Jul 2014, 18:08

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-02T17:24:35+02:00

buff ACU intel probe, when i decide gun or interl, in nealy all gun win. Or better say, i never build intel probe on acu, for small cyrcle intel it is too expensive when scout do that job better, and then cant build gun.

suggestion: when time of radar after cca 35sec decay then decrease cyrcle range of radar and let it be pernament in time when dont use probe again.
suggestion 2: on advance intel probe when visual sensor after cca 35sec decay, then let that cyrcle range as radar, and pernament until dont use probe again
suggestion 2,1: on advance intel probe lower energy cost, 45 000 is too many

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 02 Jul 2014, 17:24

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-01T18:01:32+02:00

ehm my mistake 30 not 40. when is anchor it had more range, i think it is 30. but idea is same, on my opinion that tank is pretty mutch effective for that price.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 01 Jul 2014, 18:01

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-07-01T13:06:49+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
btw tank destroer would be more expensive, 70 mass would be better, alredy it is master anti ACU unit, and that price is realy cheap for 40 range and 33dps

mostly all tank destroer had one kill, what pay themselvs,

It has 28 range and when the opponents realize tank destroyers are easily countered by labs and artilleries rather than tanks, it will not pay for itself when it kills a single lab every 9 seconds. Nomads need mixed army to win, but if opponent also mix their army more, they will be more efficient (also labs are more efficient against nomad acu because he does a lot of overkill against them).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 01 Jul 2014, 13:06

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-30T23:58:52+02:00

btw tank destroer would be more expensive, 70 mass would be better, alredy it is master anti ACU unit, and that price is realy cheap for 40 range and 33dps

mostly all tank destroer had one kill, what pay themselvs,

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 30 Jun 2014, 23:58

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-30T04:41:13+02:00

My idea was about mostly replacing t3 land with SCUs. Cheap presets would face low priority units; Gunslinger preset would be main unit to mass against main t3 units from other factions; Rocket preset would be facing sniper bots; Rambo preset would be facing experimentals; anti-naval, regular and engineer presets would do their job which isn't t3 land balance already.

I get why pip doesn't like it: only anti-naval preset includes capacitor.

If anti-naval preset needs capacitor upgrade, sure let it be, it's on the right hand, but speed upgrade on the back is also very valible in navy, so this SCU would at least be able to catch up the battleships. Also if peoplew would want something else on that spot, they would be able to easily replace it, since speed only costs 400 mass.

The combat SCUs are not that usefull. The gunslinger preset is far better simply because it has better range and can be equiped by capacitor and speed, which combat presets can't do since right arm gun takes that slot.

As for cheap presets, only one is needed - the better one. There shouldn't be a lot of SCU presets. Too many of them will confuse people.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 30 Jun 2014, 04:41

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-30T00:42:47+02:00

howgh when i start like explosion on sacu, you want to remove it? That is cruel. This is perfect function on SACu, who can had many tactical option, why delete it? Only simply say that this upgrade give 3500 dmg after exploasiong, its no problem understand it, but now is only say that this explode. explode how, ppl know that normal sacu exlode, then of course it explode, what is different. it is lack of information. What is problem what we need fix is unactual nomad unit database.
PS: that explosion is for me main reason why build RG, time discont is not so big deal and reasource gain are on T3 pahse nearly nothing. but explosion with 10aoe is something special.
serafin had teleport + OC + misile
cybran had stun + stealth + regen
euf had gun + buble shiled
aeon had sacri system
nomad had variet of diferent sacus - kamikadze sacu is one of this variet, near misile and railgun

problem with capacitator is, that is poor describe, i play nomads a lot, and styl dont know what all capacitator do. It is problem when it had diferent effect on different type of wepon. What is aoe sometime, player need to know where is it and on what is it.
And it is not problem describe when go with cursor on capacitator

"capacitator function improve acu/scu in several factors and decay after 15sec : +X%rof + Y% of dmg on Z area during 2sec ( when it would be on my i delete this function) +0,5 splash on advanced gun (acu+sacu) + 2x regen + 2x buildpower + 10 visual sensor /+2x rof on railgun(SACU) /+ 2X aoe + 2x dmg during 3sec on missile (SACU)"

And capacitator upgrade who only give more time, is nearly ussles or only usefful for railgun. i rather would had gun as only longer time for bonus effect. That upgrade need qualitative change capacitator. And simply say in descript what all that change for example:

"capacitator upgrade give +10sec on capacitator function and qualitative change several upgrade where is capacitator on : eng: +21buildpower, missile: + 15range - 2x aoe , lokomotor: +0,3 speed, VRG: + 1500dmg on explosion, gun/gatling: + X% dmg, adv gun +0,5splash, railgun: + 15sec 2xrof after capacitator off, visual sensor +10 "

capacitator price +150mass, i write it as random example, but after 5 editing, and calculating, now see this as ideal I was playing lol and dota a lot, where are many function where some spell only improve others, capacitator is exaktly that kind of function. Im not sure if capacitator is part of this strategy, but when is it here, then capacitator upgrade is logical scope.

Problem is that im not autor but only advisor, so when you dont decide for it i must throw it out, and live with not ideal solution
___

All presend are explaned, but it is chaos because describe had at least 10funkcion of sacu, and it had bad combination of upgrade, where someone are ussles and are divide by price, not function.

pip wrote:
They will be separated more clearly in next build (3 categories : support, direct fire, specialists).

"direct fire" is not best option for name. It is too technical, and not total sure as when you call it as fighter, of course everything is fighter, but everything is direct fire too, and not all had english as maternal language.

pip wrote:
Obsidians have nothing special to prevent fire on the same targets

hmm my bad memories, before obsidian was chaneling shot, and in change chaneling was deleted, so he lose that sexy sound and brutal owerfiring too. Ok this is unfixable.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 30 Jun 2014, 00:42

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-29T23:19:43+02:00

Capacitor does 3 things: more DPS on weapons (and AOE sometimes), more regen (x2) and more buildpower (x2).
We will not change this, it's already complicated enough. We won't add other buff like range because it becomes too complicated, and we prefer it to remain easy to understand : energy was stocked, it is released for more damages.

Also, to simplify SCU, death explosion of Resource Generator will be just like other SCU (1000 damages), no more kamikaze possibility.

For SACU weapons, normal gun capacitor is same as ACU (= with small AOE over time) but lower multiplier (x1.6 DPS, ACU DPS buff is x2), machine gun = more DPS only (x1.666), railgun = x2 rate of fire, rocket = more damage and AOE (2.5) during 3 seconds; DPS = 600 for the 2 rocket launchers (default is 360 and 1.25 AOE).

All presets are explained in the SACU factory, you only need to read the description once to check what they provide. They will be separated more clearly in next build (3 categories : support, direct fire, specialists).

T1 artillery/aa should not counter auroras easily, otherwise, nomads just need to build them and t1 gunships and use ACU. Nomads are strong enough already against Aeons.

Obsidians have nothing special to prevent fire on the same targets, no unit has that. The solution to fix this is to space your units properly and not form a line but rather a diagonal so that they don't shoot at the same time. It's easy to prepare with a right click preview move order and then to use anchor mode .

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Jun 2014, 23:19

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-29T21:51:03+02:00

Pip pls say me what all capacitator do, and what all capacitator upgrade do, and if are my sugestion about capacitator upgrade ok for you.
___________

Imho we dont have problem with number of sacu present, but with chaos of description, imho we dont need desrcipe that unit is upgratable, volatile, transportabe etc.. what is on all sacus, this describe can be only on clasic sacu present. I see better simply say what present had and role for what was desygn. And divide line betwen suport/fight/specialist category help a lot!

___

Small tweek:

- T1 artilery - ROF change to one salve deal 120->140dmg (for kill aurora to one salve, very litle help because so unacurate, but a litle bit)

- T1 tank destroer had similar problem as had obsidian in past, they all focus on first object, then all fire and w8 for reaload time. On Obsidian time this problem was fixed by use some chaneling mechanism, so for now obsidian fire on own object and is not so many owerfiring. When this would be on tank destroer too (what would be good) then get price and time +15%

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 29 Jun 2014, 21:51

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-29T15:41:42+02:00

Need to take a look on new balance patch.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 29 Jun 2014, 15:41

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-29T13:35:32+02:00

1) RAS: Nomads SCU now don't have RAS anymore, they have a simple resource generator that gives +2 mass/400 energy (Nomads SCU don't give +1 mass/+20 energy anymore which is a basice resource generator). That is similar with Seraphim SCU (+2 mass, + 200 energy, for free), except a bit better because you have to pay for an upgrade and it takes a slot. Seraphim SCU can be built with adjacency. The resource generator for Nomads SCU is as much about speeding up capacitor fill time (20 seconds instead of 50 seconds). It's a multipurpose upgrade, not like RAS.

2) Anti-naval preset: it needs capacitor upgrade to compete against subs because it doubles its rate of fire, meaning it can absorb more torpedoes (otherwise, most of its DPS are countered by units that launch a lot of torpedoes). It doesn't have speed upgrade included because if it has that, it prevents from choosing armor buff or Resource Generator (which is also useful because it boosts capacitor fill rate). Forcing speed upgrade cuts out options. Having 3.3 speed instead of 2.2 speed is interesting underwater, but so is having 4000 HP more and ability to repair faster (or even 28000 hp more).

3) Rocket launcher + resource generator is all about using big AOE rocket more often in capacitor mode, and since you keep your distance, you also benefit from boosted resources if you manage to keep your SCU alive (capacitor also boosts regen rate and survivability). If this preset is not used, it can be replaced with rocket + speed upgrade, or there can be a single rocket launcher preset that includes speed upgrade (though same as for naval preset, this would take out possible interesting options and force higher price). Rockets in capacitor mode kill mobile shields and snipers for breakfast as well as t2 pd rows, that's why it's useful to be able charge it up in 20 seconds. This kind of upgrade is there to be tested and see if it's good for gameplay. You cannot know what it does unless capacitor mode is (ab)used with it.

4) Combat presets are useful. You should fear an Aeon SCU with gun upgrade and its big AOE or a Cybran SCU with EMP. It's not because people don't use them much that they are not useful. As for Nomads, a 800 DPS unit (1300 DPS for 15 seconds in capacitor mode) can be useful (especially if you have one among cheaper SCU and your opponent doesn't realize it). For a reminder, Nomads are a faction that emphasize firepower (DPS) above hp. That's their faction trait. Maybe this preset will not work against Percivals or Experimentals, but I'm sure it is devastating against Aeon and Sera heavy units (it will force them to build snipers).

In next build, there will be 2 cheap presets:
One with just a gun, another with machine gun (with better range than before) + speed upgrade (= new fast combat).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Jun 2014, 13:35

Re: SACU - prebuild units, and capacitator

2014-06-29T12:18:29+02:00

Brute51 wrote:
So what would be your recommendations concerning SCU presets? Please keep it clear and short (few words).

Can't really make it short.

SCU presets have to be specialised, usefull and take part in t3 land balance,it's cheaper to get those.

My suggestion would be to save most usefull presets:
-Regular preset
-Engineer preset
-Gunslinger preset
-Rambo preset

to change some, to be better:
-Rocket launcher preset: to add speed upgrade in it and may be buff range on rockets to be able to counter sniper bots
-Anti-naval preset: to add or replace capactor with speed upgrade, so it would be able to compete with naval units

to add cheap combat preset with either left arm gun or with right arm gun(depending of what is more cost efficient), so it would be cheap, quick to get and most used close fight purposes.

to remove:
-presets with RAS (producer and energy rocket launcher), so people wouldn't build those with using the adjacency bonus
-combat presets(combat and fast combat), btw have you ever seen people building combatant presets in main FAF game mode?

Also i don't like the voices for SCUs. If there would be option to disable only these voices, it would be nice.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 29 Jun 2014, 12:18