Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T22:28:30+02:00

Another one bite the dust.

Last warning before forum bans.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 24 Jan 2012, 22:28

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T21:52:07+02:00

I suppose that's why the other thread was locked, and Ze_PilOt explicitly stated to stop discussing mercies and instead start posting replays for him to examine; at which point I was pretty much the only one posting said replays while everyone else preferred to endlessly debate said replays?

Your premise of why you think a change is required in the first place is flawed from the start, and further debate is counterproductive to your goal.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 21:52

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T21:41:37+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
You mean, a few vocal people are. Not the "community".

Pretty much everybody but you.

Which has yet to be proven, as shown in the multiple mercy threads.

It's been proven, you just don't agree that it's been proven.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Jan 2012, 21:41

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T21:06:00+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Well, the community is calling for a mercy nerf

You mean, a few vocal people are. Not the "community".

FunkOff wrote:
because mercies are clearly OP in 3610

Which has yet to be proven, as shown in the multiple mercy threads.

As a side note, if someone doesn't like having to pay attention to their ACU, they are free to play without share until death, as you yourself brought up in the other thread. No balance changes required. Just like someone who dislikes being rushed by tanks is free to play a NR game.

FunkOff wrote:
with a single change, I can make it less good against ACUs and more effective against other targets.

So now we're dramatically changing the roles of units, units which were already functioning perfectly fine? I think not.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 21:06

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T20:50:26+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
All in an effort to make mercy snipes less effective under the guise of something else.

Well, the community is calling for a mercy nerf because mercies are clearly OP in 3610, and I'm just trying to pre-empt the inevitable situation where mercies are underpowered. Everybody wants to make mercies less good against ACUs, and I'm just trying to make sure they are good against other things. After all, if a mercy is no better than a gunship in any situation, then it will be UP. I figure, with a single change, I can make it less good against ACUs and more effective against other targets.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Jan 2012, 20:50

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T19:21:11+02:00

So in other words, it would oscillate between "useless" and "ungodly OP", and even if a perfect middle ground were to be found, it would simply be another suboptimal unit like the Restorer - you build it because you want a heavy gunship, and while the AA is nice you'd really prefer more land DPS.

All in an effort to make mercy snipes less effective under the guise of something else.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 19:21

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T18:55:57+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
200 mass gives you 1500 hp. Let's say there's a group of 6 of them. Send 4 mercies at them. What happens? A random distribution of them will die. Theoretically, in a "perfect" scenario you should be able to kill all of them (10k potential damage vs 9k health), being a wash in mass efficiency. If it's random, this will never happen, drastically lowering their effectiveness. It's essentially a dice roll, albeit a dice roll that's always less efficient than other alternatives, and one that will instantly die if there are any ints or AA in the general vicinity.

A few points you're not considering: The AoE on the mercy right now is 3, and that's enough so that it can easily hit multiple units with a single shot. If you tested the mercy shotgun mod, you'd have seen how ungodly deadly this is... completely obliterating small groups of land units with just a pair of mercies.

Also, you hate "random" but it is unnecessary that it be random. It could just send one projectile at each of 8 units within range. If there are more in range, say 20, it would just pick the 8 closest to its selected target. No randomness, no surprise.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Jan 2012, 18:55

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T18:51:43+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Yep and yep. That's why it will be easy to balance a "cluster missile" mercy: Because it will still be good vs high tech units and acus, so you'll use it against that, but if you need to take out tech 1 units, you'll use gunships instead.

How will it be "good" against high tech units?

Let's take the common T2 tank as an example: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... bp=UEL0202

200 mass gives you 1500 hp. Let's say there's a group of 6 of them. Send 4 mercies at them. What happens? A random distribution of them will die. Theoretically, in a "perfect" scenario you should be able to kill all of them (10k potential damage vs 9k health), being a wash in mass efficiency. If it's random, this will never happen, drastically lowering their effectiveness. It's essentially a dice roll, albeit a dice roll that's always less efficient than other alternatives, and one that will instantly die if there are any ints or AA in the general vicinity.

Obviously it won't be used as an anti-T2 tank unit. So... we're left with its "primary" function, ACU sniping, which is now somewhat buffed in the early game and nerfed in the late game.

What's the point of this? It's a semi-nerf to the mercy, disguised as making it a "multipurpose unit".

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 18:51

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T18:29:56+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
And when was the last time you built an F/B for air control? You don't. You build it for a bomber.

And when did you build a cruiser to kill frigates (aside from perhaps Cybran cruisers)? You don't. You build them for their AA capabilities.

Yep and yep. That's why it will be easy to balance a "cluster missile" mercy: Because it will still be good vs high tech units and acus, so you'll use it against that, but if you need to take out tech 1 units, you'll use gunships instead.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Jan 2012, 18:29

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T18:04:15+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
You must really love me uber. They say mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery and here you are parroting my words as your own!

So if you say that the sky is blue, and then I say somewhere else that the sky is blue, I'm mimicking you? You are not the first to have used the metaphor (in fact, I don't believe that you have) and certainly not the first to have come up with this logic, so attempting to assert that another is "mimicking" you is not only disingenuous, but supremely arrogant.

FunkOff wrote:
Your fundamental assertion is wrong, however. Multi-purpose units are very easy to balance provided they are not better at any one thing than a dedicated unit doing only that same thing. Take fighter-bombers, they can shoot air as well but that doesn't make them overpowered because they are much less efficient at it than interceptors.

And when was the last time you built an F/B for air control? You don't. You build it for a bomber.

FunkOff wrote:
Take Aeon/UEF cruisers, they have short range deck guns like frigates so they can shoot other ships/hover units but that doesn't make them OP because frigates perform that function far better.

And when did you build a cruiser to kill frigates (aside from perhaps Cybran cruisers)? You don't. You build them for their AA capabilities.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 18:04

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T17:56:31+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
due to Darwinian logic: if two units perform a similar function, one will necessarily be superior to the other, and in the context of a competitive game, that is the one which will be used while the other(s) ignored.

You must really love me uber. They say mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery and here you are parroting my words as your own!

Multipurpose, do-everything units are really, really difficult to balance, simply

Your fundamental assertion is wrong, however. Multi-purpose units are very easy to balance provided they are not better at any one thing than a dedicated unit doing only that same thing. Take fighter-bombers, they can shoot air as well but that doesn't make them overpowered because they are much less efficient at it than interceptors. Take Aeon/UEF cruisers, they have short range deck guns like frigates so they can shoot other ships/hover units but that doesn't make them OP because frigates perform that function far better.

So what would a multi-locking mercy do? It would be capable both against singular targets and groups of targets, but it would be worse against groups made of tech 1 units. That's fine because gunships are good against tech 1 units. It's all balanced.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Jan 2012, 17:56

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T16:45:09+02:00

Let's use new types of units / weapons in new factions or total conversions and focus on balancing FA the way it is now. It's an interesting idea for sure, but it's much easier to balance the mercy as it is than this different version. First things first.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 24 Jan 2012, 16:45

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T16:34:29+02:00

In a best-case scenario, that will let you kill 10 tanks with two mercies. Probably less due to the random factor and multiple projectiles homing in and overkilling targets, and more if the target is Auroras which would be one-shot'd.

That means you're spending 600 mass in mercies to kill 500 mass in units. In other words, it will be useless at that role. So we're left with ACU sniping again:

As for ACU sniping, as Isen said, 250 damage is enough to kill AAs. Send a couple mercies in first to effectively kill AAs, and then send the rest in to kill the ACU. They'll actually be more effective this way thanks to this "bonus" weapon, while still requiring the same number of mercies to snipe an ACU.

The final nail in the coffin is that in some scenarios (the ACU is amidst a LOT of tanks, or amongst heavy tanks, for example), what happens will be decided ENTIRELY by chance. People complain that mercy snipes, in their current form, are "lucky" - well, since the outcome of such a scenario is decided entirely by a random number generator, it's now the very definition of luck.

If it were designed to favor other targets instead of ACUs, that would not only be an armor system, but would probably nerf lategame mercy usage into uselessness, something that's already very rarely used because late-game ACUs are typically well defended (unless your enemy has a serious death wish). In effect, turning an already-niche unit into a useless unit.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 16:34

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T15:06:42+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
I really like this idea, because it will be so incredibly overpowered that people will beg for the good old days of the current mercy.

Multipurpose, do-everything units are really, really difficult to balance, simply due to Darwinian logic: if two units perform a similar function, one will necessarily be superior to the other, and in the context of a competitive game, that is the one which will be used while the other(s) ignored. The Mercy II will fill the role of both high-value target sniper and general purpose unit destroyer (massacre-er?), while its increased health ensures it will survive against light defenses. This means it can counter not only ACU pushes but general spam as well, not to mention being an effective shield breaker. In other words... it combines the general usefulness of the gunship, with the mercy's extreme frontloadedness, combining to create the ultimate jack of all trades weapon.

If you make it expensive/unwieldy/etc to try to balance it, so much so that it is less effective than normal tanks / gunships / etc, it will not be used.

Okay, when you have Mr. Mercy saying your idea is good, it's about time to balance it out a little...

250 damage per projectile
10 projectiles
10 health
Utilizes current speed

Statistics: Posted by MushrooMars — 24 Jan 2012, 15:06

Re: Another suggestion for changing the Mercy: The Mercy II

2012-01-24T14:48:38+02:00

I really like this idea, because it will be so incredibly overpowered that people will beg for the good old days of the current mercy.

Multipurpose, do-everything units are really, really difficult to balance, simply due to Darwinian logic: if two units perform a similar function, one will necessarily be superior to the other, and in the context of a competitive game, that is the one which will be used while the other(s) ignored. The Mercy II will fill the role of both high-value target sniper and general purpose unit destroyer (massacre-er?), while its increased health ensures it will survive against light defenses. This means it can counter not only ACU pushes but general spam as well, not to mention being an effective shield breaker. In other words... it combines the general usefulness of the gunship, with the mercy's extreme frontloadedness, combining to create the ultimate jack of all trades weapon.

If you make it expensive/unwieldy/etc to try to balance it, so much so that it is less effective than normal tanks / gunships / etc, it will not be used.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 14:48