Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-24T18:08:20+02:00

Since your brain seems to function differently, at least use your eyes properly. This replay is very interesting when you watch it at -10 speed, to check the units behaviour.

12:08 : The first mercy (because Green obviously don't know that mercies should be used in group and not one by one) ESCAPES 3 SHOTS from 2 t1 mobile AA units that are IN FRONT of the ACU. And the mercy actually hits the first ACU, despite these mobile AA that are in front. If there had been two mercies = GG. Then a third t1 mobile AA is put in front of both ACU.

12:14 : The second mercy is killed by 3-4 t1 mobile AA that are very much ahead of the ACU. The stationary AA that is behind the ACU effectively manages to shoot towards the mercy just a bit later, but it's normal : stationary AA has 45 range. That's precisely what would help t1 mobile AA to deal with mercy from just behind the ACU, something they have a hard time doing when they are in front.

12:19 : very randomly, the third mercy escapes 5 shots of 3 T1 mobile AA units that are just near it, and then is finally hit and dies.
If these three mercies had been sent at once, the first ACU would have died since only two were required to kill, and the first one did hit during the first mercy attack. Then every structures around would have died too and an additional mercy would have finished the second ACU.

13:18: Mirror mercy attacks. Light Blue attacks with 8 mercies. No inties above targetted ACU. The mercies strike and kill (normal).
At the same time, Green tries a second mercy strike with 2 mercies. Two mobile t1 aa are at the same level as the UEF ACU, and slightly ahead of the Seraphim ACU that is the target. These mobile AA fire at the 2 mercies, but both mercies explode before being killed.

13:19 : Green ACU explodes (killed by Light Blue mercy attack) and damages Blackfish ACU (2000 damages).
13:21 : Green's mercies kill Blackfish Seraphim ACU (4800 damages).
What's interesting is not Light Blue succesfully mercy striking with his 8 mercies. It's Green mercies managing to attack just before the 2 t1 mobile AA that are ahead of Blackfish (from the direction from which the mercies come) can shoot them down.

13:24 : Light Blue kill White ACU with a remaining mercy he didn't use against Green. Nothing interesting here. White was dead anyway.

Of course, -10 speed and careful watching are necessary to get interesting data from this replay. I needed to watch it 3 times.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 24 Jan 2012, 18:08

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-24T17:23:22+02:00

An excellent showing of mercies being countered, even when they shouldn't be:

12:20: a mercy is killed even though AA is behind the ACUs.

At 14:00, when the snipe happens, you'll notice that NeverRizing5on has full air superiority. And yet... his air is sitting uselessly in his base. No scouting, and no effort to save themselves when the snipe happens.

They were also pretty much dead from the dual ACU assault.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Jan 2012, 17:23

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-24T04:01:09+02:00

Triple ACU Mercy death!

Statistics: Posted by BlackFish — 24 Jan 2012, 04:01

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-23T01:30:30+02:00

Evil_mind wrote:
We've seen replays of mercies flying over t1-t2 flaks

As we have seen replays of mercies being stopped by T1 and T2 AA. We have also seen replays of gunships and drops both flying over T1-T2 AA and being stopped by it, depending on a multitude of various factors.

Evil_mind wrote:
"Limited effectiveness" what the hell is that? T2 AA is the worst possible counter, I call that unreliable and ineffective counter, counter that doesn't work, unless they are WAY ahead of your ACU which is not possible on account of them being killed by the enemy.

You defined "limited effectiveness" yourself in your very next sentence sentence: if you are able to keep the flak a good ways in front of your ACU without it being killed, it is effective. Look back through the thread for the replay on meteor 4v4 - rock defended against a mercy snipe in exactly this way.

Evil_mind wrote:
When you say that t1-t2 AA counters mercies, please don't forget adding that mercies need to be already scouted and/or AA should be way ahead of your ACU.

As do gunships, bombers, drops... Since scouting the things that you want to kill is a basic game mechanic, should I also include things such as "remember to select your units by dragging a box over them" and "right clicking issues an attack command" in my posts?

Since only 1 person downloaded this replay (I guess because arguing is more fun than gathering evidence..), I'll repost it in an effort to drag the thread back on topic:
mercy snipe 3.SCFAReplay

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 23 Jan 2012, 01:30

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T21:01:57+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
- All forms of T2 flak have limited effectiveness due to their slow speed, and should only be used when they are very far ahead of the mercy's target.
- SAMs are akin to trying to defend against a LAB swarm with T3 PD.
- Interceptors are the very best counter for mercies, and can easily and cost-effectively counter them.

So if I understand you properly, you agree that all forms of T2 flak and T3 SAMs are ineffective against mercies. Further, you assert, as I noted above, that you don't think ANY kind of AA can stop mercies? So basically, an air unit that cannot be stopped by anti-air units is completely okay and not only not overpowered, but, as I quote "incredibly risky"?

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 21 Jan 2012, 21:01

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T20:28:09+02:00

I'm gonna argue one last time with you and then I'm done because your logic is definitely biased, not to say broken, for some very unclear reason that must be freudian.

Ubergeek wrote : "If you lose air superiority, yes, you are screwed. Your valuable units such as engineers, pgens, and land forces may killed by gunships, by drops, by bombers, and yes, by mercies. This is not faction specific.

Note, also, that Cybran T1 AA is just as effective as any other faction's T1 AA when used properly".

What a load of bullshit.

1) You can counter gunships / drops / bombers with t1 mobile aa, and mobile flaks with any factions, but you can't counter mercies with Flak or t1 mobile aa when you are Cybran. Stop contradicting yourself. (Besides, you'll never use mercies to snipe engineers, what a crappy generalization).
2) Cybran T1 mobile AA is not as effective as any other faction's t1 mobile AA to counter mercy, you just said the contrary YOURSELF.

Next replay please.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 21 Jan 2012, 20:28

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T21:29:00+02:00

pip wrote:
1) I'm glad you admit that at least "there is one problem" : once a Cybran player lost air superiority, he is screwed and is forced to retreat his ACU as soon as Aeon has t2 air, losing any momentum he could have thanks to a gun upgrade for instance.

This is not what I wrote. What I actually wrote was:

uberge3k wrote:
... there is one problem: T1 mobile AA is not a good counter for mercies.

If you lose air superiority, yes, you are screwed. Your valuable units such as engineers, pgens, and land forces may killed by gunships, by drops, by bombers, and yes, by mercies. This is not faction specific.

[edited to remove any ambiguity whatsoever]:
Note, also, that stationary Cybran T1 AA is just as effective as any other faction's stationary T1 AA when used properly.

FumkOff wrote:
I watched your replay. Your attempted a mercy snipe against the BEST defended enemy of the three who were remaining at the time. Against sadjuk or arma, you would have been successful.

Incorrect. ARMAGGEDON had level one nano, which increased his HP to over 20,000, in addition to being the furthest back (giving them the most amount of time to scramble air) and having many anti air units in front of his ACU, further decreasing the odds of a successful snipe.

sadjuk was underneath a shield, had a 15k HP ACU, and had air very close.

Evil_Mind, however, was the least defended at the time I launched the attack, having only a mobile shield and a 12k ACU. He was also the highest priority target, seeing as he controlled the majority of their economy.

FunkOff wrote:
Further, the mercies were stopped by interceptors, not shields or AA or radar as you claim can stop mercies.

What AA are you saying that I "claim can stop mercies"? Because lumping what I have actually stated into a single ambiguous statement such as that is quite disingenuous, and very near a strawman argument. I shall reiterate:

- Stationary T1 AA is the best land-based counter for mercies, yet should only be used as an absolute last resort.
- Mobile T1 AA is less effective, and Cybran's is close to useless, and should not be relied on to counter mercies.
- All forms of T2 flak have limited effectiveness due to their slow speed, and should only be used when they are very far ahead of the mercy's target.
- SAMs are akin to trying to defend against a LAB swarm with T3 PD.
- Interceptors are the very best counter for mercies, and can easily and cost-effectively counter them.

The replay backs up these claims.

FunkOff wrote:
The second attempted snipe was the same exact thing: It would have been successful if not for interceptors... AA and shields did not stop it. Further, that snipe wasn't even unsuccessful, 80% of the acu's health was removed and forced his withdrawal. That's a victory even if it's not a kill.

- There was no AA in sight. He was pushing very hard with his ACU.
- Shields did stop the snipe. If he hadn't have had the shield, he would have died.
- Interceptors properly stopped the attack.
- Considering the lateness of the game and the relative lack of resources put into his ACU, I simply do not understand how it could be seen as cost-effective. The mercy attack was a last ditch attempt to try to snipe his ACU. In fact, had I noted the closeness of completion of CurrySmuggler's exp, I likely would have waited and let him be drawn in further, as he most likely would have been killed by it.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Jan 2012, 19:18

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T17:56:05+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
Here's a great replay showing how to easily and cost-effectively keep yourself safe from mercies:

I watched your replay. Your attempted a mercy snipe against the BEST defended enemy of the three who were remaining at the time. Against sadjuk or arma, you would have been successful. You would have known that if you had scouted to see how much air and intel they had. Further, the mercies were stopped by interceptors, not shields or AA or radar as you claim can stop mercies.

The second attempted snipe was the same exact thing: It would have been successful if not for interceptors... AA and shields did not stop it. Further, that snipe wasn't even unsuccessful, 80% of the acu's health was removed and forced his withdrawal. That's a victory even if it's not a kill.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 21 Jan 2012, 17:56

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T17:33:09+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
Isen's game is somewhat more interesting, but there is one problem: T1 mobile AA is not a good counter for mercies. Cybran T1 mobile AA is utterly useless for it, as their mobile T1 AA has absurdly slow projectiles. More ints would have saved him.

Here's a great replay showing how to easily and cost-effectively keep yourself safe from mercies:
mercy defense 3.SCFAReplay

1) I'm glad you admit that at least "there is one problem" : once a Cybran player lost air superiority, he is screwed and is forced to retreat his ACU as soon as Aeon has t2 air, losing any momentum he could have thanks to a gun upgrade for instance.

2) This replay is not just a replay where mercies are countered, it's an amazing replay per se. Everyone should watch it for the epicness this game can produce, even those who don't care about mercies.
Too bad there is a desynch at the end.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 21 Jan 2012, 17:33

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-21T16:22:55+02:00

We seem to be watching two wildly different games. Both of karottenrambo's replays simply show people who were already losing being killed by mercies.

Regarding shields/flak/SAMs not stopping mercies:

- Shields DO stop mercies. You can cannot cost-effectively counter shields with mercies, as has already been discussed.

- Trying to use flak and SAMs to defend against mercies is like trying to use T3 PD to stop LAB spam.

Isen's game is somewhat more interesting, but there is one problem: T1 mobile AA is not a good counter for mercies. Cybran T1 mobile AA is utterly useless for it, as their mobile T1 AA has absurdly slow projectiles. More ints would have saved him.

Here's a great replay showing how to easily and cost-effectively keep yourself safe from mercies:
mercy defense 3.SCFAReplay

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Jan 2012, 16:22

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-20T19:14:56+02:00

This thread is to discuss replays with mercies. This is not to debate their value, op or not. Any posts not adhering to this will be removed.

Statistics: Posted by ToejamS — 20 Jan 2012, 19:14

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-19T14:35:56+02:00

Karottenrambo wrote:
4v4 on chaos, every single enemy player died by mercies.

Wow.

The second guy to die has 3 AA towers right next to his ACU.... didn't stop a single mercy. The third guy had shields/flak/SAMs and it did not stop mercies. The last guy had like 5 or 10 AA towers and again, all the mercies got through.

GJ karo, that's a strong replay.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 19 Jan 2012, 14:35

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-18T14:34:08+02:00

Karottenrambo wrote:
again

map: six leaf clover - enemies: Armma, fok, Chosen

Those guys are all pretty much pros... and they were all helpless vs the mercies. Great replay in terms of showing mercy imba.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 18 Jan 2012, 14:34

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-18T11:46:21+02:00

@Funkoff : i can watch his replays without a problem. "Skilled" mercy snipes in multiplayer games, unless the opponents are noobs unable to defend against mercy attacks, as you prefer...

@Isen : your replay shows that Cybran has only one mobile counter for mercies : inties. Skyslammer weapon velocity (or muzzle velocity) is too slow, the shots will never have the time to hit mercies because mercies fly faster than the skyslammer's muzzle velocity. The shots will always be too late because the mercy explodes before the shots can reach it, even if the mecy is in firing range (and two shots are required by any t1 mobile aa to kill a 10 hp mercy). Unless skyslammers are just below the mercies when they fire, which means more than near / ahead of the ACU.

Range is not the only factor for t1 aa, muzzle velocity is even more important (that's why flak cannot kill mercies in time either).
Cybran fixed t1 aa has more range and good muzzle velocity, that's why it can actually counter mercy (when they don't miss, of course...). Skyslammers can't, even if you target manually.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 18 Jan 2012, 11:46

Re: Mercies Replays.

2012-01-18T02:02:44+02:00

your last two replays did not work for me karo

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 18 Jan 2012, 02:02