Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Auroras

2012-02-24T17:00:15+02:00

I never build sera hover tanks
dont care if water map they are useless the only useful amph t2 tank is the aeon.

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 24 Feb 2012, 17:00

Re: Auroras

2012-02-24T11:45:29+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
There are more maps with less or no water than maps with enough water to cause a problem though.

It also depends on how you define risky. Land radar isn't expensive and has fairly good range. An air fight vs Aeon can be hard but it's really hard for Aeon to micro their Auroras and Air at the same time as well as their eco. Also T2 hover arty can help with that.

sry, i thought u were talking about water maps like white fire or 4 islands - on no water maps i would never build sera t2 hover tank.

just dont take me wrong, i dont want to convice u that t2 hover tanks r shit. u can use whatever u want on water or no water map vs auroas - but there is a better choice on water vs them (frigates + hover arty for reason i mentioned above) and t2 bots on land maps (for reasons i hope it is clear). so, anyhow i would never build sera t2 hover tanks - at least not in a real close fight.

Statistics: Posted by Batmansrueckkehr — 24 Feb 2012, 11:45

Re: Auroras

2012-02-24T05:03:54+02:00

Batmansrueckkehr wrote:
frigate is best choice vs auroas - lots of hp, good dps (and no overkill for sera frigates), cheap, fast and frigates outrange auroas and they have radar. frigates can own auroas even when u have lost air (so u still win even if u dont use bombers or jesters). after wining the water fight u can keep up pushing with t1 hover arty into land (- and even consider to go t2 navy)
using t2 hover tanks is more risky - u need the enemy in ur land radar range or need to win the air fight too.

There are more maps with less or no water than maps with enough water to cause a problem though.

It also depends on how you define risky. Land radar isn't expensive and has fairly good range. An air fight vs Aeon can be hard but it's really hard for Aeon to micro their Auroras and Air at the same time as well as their eco. Also T2 hover arty can help with that.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 24 Feb 2012, 05:03

Re: Auroras

2012-02-23T09:49:52+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
So it's a good option to make a unit superior, inferior to everything else? Why aren't you using jesters (or T1 air) or T2 tanks? Sure it takes a little more time and mass to make a T2 factory but it also takes more time to increase your production to spam T1. Many T2 tanks can kill more than enough T1 spam to make them very cost effective too.

I would use Sera T2 hover vs Auroras because T1 frigates can't go on land, T1 hover arty can miss. You just need to support them with bombers (their radar helps a lot) and T2 hover flak (or interceptors). It isn't a bad idea to mix T2 hover tank with T1 hover arty though. That can hit hard, just remember T1 hover arty is slower.

frigate is best choice vs auroas - lots of hp, good dps (and no overkill for sera frigates), cheap, fast and frigates outrange auroas and they have radar. frigates can own auroas even when u have lost air (so u still win even if u dont use bombers or jesters). after wining the water fight u can keep up pushing with t1 hover arty into land (- and even consider to go t2 navy)
using t2 hover tanks is more risky - u need the enemy in ur land radar range or need to win the air fight too.

Statistics: Posted by Batmansrueckkehr — 23 Feb 2012, 09:49

Re: Auroras

2012-02-23T08:21:38+02:00

Pavese wrote:
The "towerfest" problem isn't from the PDs it's from the shields. T2 shields are cheap compared to what they can do and very hard to counter once they're up (cost effectively). Even Cybran shields (placed properly to cycle) can become a huge pain to counter.

Never seen anyone use Shield Disruptors (Aeon.) They have decent range and will cost-effectively replace strategic bombers in taking on enemy shields (assuming you protect them with mobile shields yourself.)

Back to the topic, I lost one game vs Frits playing Aeon because my Fobos died too quickly without enough micro against Auroras. I think it's more of a micro skill difference between me and him though. :"> Thanks for the suggestions. I will test rushing radar/bomber to micro Fobos while building frigates.

Statistics: Posted by atomcrusader — 23 Feb 2012, 08:21

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T19:17:51+02:00

pip wrote:
Gunseng, you forgot something important that nullifies your whole analysis of Yenzine versus aurora.
Aurora range = 26, Aeon has has hovering scout.
Yenzine range = 18, Seraphim has no hovering scout, which means their firing range is rather 15 (vision radius) in many situations.
You can kill maybe one or two auroras if your opponent doesn't pay attention and doesn't micro much, but a good Aeon player can kill your Yenzine before it can kill any of the 4 auroras you are taking as an example.

When a unit cannot even fire at another one, it doesn't matter how much DPS or HP it has.

When you are Seraphim, you'd better not try to counter Aurora with Yenzine but with Frigates, bombers and gunships. Yenzines are in no way comparable to Riptides.

I didn't forget I just thought it would be common sense to have radar or vision since there is a range difference and Aeon have hover scout. Zenyne will win due to speed: 3.1 (Aurora) 3.7 (Yenzyne). If you don't have radar or vision then back away, or look for a bottleneck, or force them to fight somewhere else. Yenzyne would lose if compared with DPS. You have to remember they 1 shot kill Auroras every 4 seconds, if they didn't then they'd be useless against Auroras. It works try it, just don't leave them without proper support or take out their hover scout.

Batmansrueckkehr wrote:
i see it as funk and i think his 2. option is best. reduce speed and turn speed. so mantis etc. can catch up and have even a little more advantage in close combat cause of less turn speed of the auroas.

t2 sera hover vs auroas - you have to consider that going for t2 land also takes time and mass compared to the auroa spam. i think frigates and t1 hover arty do a better job.

So it's a good option to make a unit superior, inferior to everything else? Why aren't you using jesters (or T1 air) or T2 tanks? Sure it takes a little more time and mass to make a T2 factory but it also takes more time to increase your production to spam T1. Many T2 tanks can kill more than enough T1 spam to make them very cost effective too.

I would use Sera T2 hover vs Auroras because T1 frigates can't go on land, T1 hover arty can miss. You just need to support them with bombers (their radar helps a lot) and T2 hover flak (or interceptors). It isn't a bad idea to mix T2 hover tank with T1 hover arty though. That can hit hard, just remember T1 hover arty is slower.

Pavese wrote:
Not to mention that every T2 rush can be nearly hard countered with cheap as hell aeon-range upgrade and OC (just finaly delete OC pls) and bombers, espically UEF bombers, are pretty shit against moivng Units.

Auroras were always a pain. :erfing them now, i dunno. We could see how the lesser range more HP thing turns out. But keep in mind that Aeon has rather crappy T2 land with his overkill tank.

Dont touch PDs! This game becomes a fucking towerfest to easy (by that i mean every fucking game with T2 PDs in it) with T2 already, no need to make T1 PDs a more viable option other then holding chockes or as retreating option.

I hate that range upgrade. Even though it doesn't increase damage, if you get gun upgrade it's their 100 DPS vs your 0 DPS due to the insane range on it. You can't even catch up to them since you both move at the same speed. I love UEF bombers, makes killing a row of pgens easy.

Exactly, Auroras have crappy T2 land so they need an advantage at T1 or it'll be a constant beat-down on them the whole game.

The "towerfest" problem isn't from the PDs it's from the shields. T2 shields are cheap compared to what they can do and very hard to counter once they're up (cost effectively). Even Cybran shields (placed properly to cycle) can become a huge pain to counter.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 22 Feb 2012, 19:17

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T12:26:06+02:00

Not to mention that every T2 rush can be nearly hard countered with cheap as hell aeon-range upgrade and OC (just finaly delete OC pls) and bombers, espically UEF bombers, are pretty shit against moivng Units.

Auroras were always a pain. :erfing them now, i dunno. We could see how the lesser range more HP thing turns out. But keep in mind that Aeon has rather crappy T2 land with his overkill tank.

Dont touch PDs! This game becomes a fucking towerfest to easy (by that i mean every fucking game with T2 PDs in it) with T2 already, no need to make T1 PDs a more viable option other then holding chockes or as retreating option.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 22 Feb 2012, 12:26

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T11:07:20+02:00

i see it as funk and i think his 2. option is best. reduce speed and turn speed. so mantis etc. can catch up and have even a little more advantage in close combat cause of less turn speed of the auroas.

t2 sera hover vs auroas - you have to consider that going for t2 land also takes time and mass compared to the auroa spam. i think frigates and t1 hover arty do a better job.

t1 pd range, i see no need to increase its range. it is fine.

Statistics: Posted by Batmansrueckkehr — 22 Feb 2012, 11:07

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T08:26:15+02:00

Gunseng, you forgot something important that nullifies your whole analysis of Yenzine versus aurora.
Aurora range = 26, Aeon has has hovering scout.
Yenzine range = 18, Seraphim has no hovering scout, which means their firing range is rather 15 (vision radius) in many situations.
You can kill maybe one or two auroras if your opponent doesn't pay attention and doesn't micro much, but a good Aeon player can kill your Yenzine before it can kill any of the 4 auroras you are taking as an example.

When a unit cannot even fire at another one, it doesn't matter how much DPS or HP it has.

When you are Seraphim, you'd better not try to counter Aurora with Yenzine but with Frigates, bombers and gunships. Yenzines are in no way comparable to Riptides.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 22 Feb 2012, 08:26

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T02:16:21+02:00

atomcrusader wrote:
How do you best deal with Auroras as a Seraphim? The Seraphim Hover tank (Zenzyne)
is too weak, and bombers are effective but require too much effort. I can deal with them
using Illshavohs on land, but on water maps they own my expansions. xD

The Zenzyne owns Auroras:

4 Auroras cost about 1 Zenzyne

Zenzyne one shot kills Auroras and are faster.

So it takes 4 Auroras (~107 DPS) ~12 seconds to kill 1 Zenzyne.

Zenzyne kills 1 Aurora every 4 seconds so:

4 Auroras become 3, then 2, then 1, then 0 losing DPS every time (every 4 seconds) Zenzyne kills an Aurora.

Zenzyne maintains its DPS the entire time.

You shouldn't be losing to Auroras with Zenzyne.

thygrrr wrote:
I'd rather like to see T1 PD range increased by 5 or 6 so it mildly outranges T1 artillery, which would still own its ass but no longer hardcounter it at zero threat - giving the PD more than just the role of ACU scare.

The PD would then also own Auroras like it already owns other tanks.

That's like giving a T2 PD the range of a Mobile Missile Launcher. T1 PD has really good DPS so if anything focus on the Auroras, which the only complaint I have about them is having the same range of a T1 PD. ONE less in range to 0-25 would be acceptable.

As for Aeon having an "advantage" with Auroras: if you know they're Aeon, and you know they will spam Auroras then how is it a disadvantage knowing what your opponent is going to do? Stop fighting Aeon's units with units proven to be ineffective against them.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 22 Feb 2012, 02:16

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T00:52:08+02:00

I'd rather like to see T1 PD range increased by 5 or 6 so it mildly outranges T1 artillery, which would still own its ass but no longer hardcounter it at zero threat - giving the PD more than just the role of ACU scare.

The PD would then also own Auroras like it already owns other tanks.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 22 Feb 2012, 00:52

Re: Auroras

2012-02-22T00:49:08+02:00

How do you best deal with Auroras as a Seraphim? The Seraphim Hover tank (Zenzyne)
is too weak, and bombers are effective but require too much effort. I can deal with them
using Illshavohs on land, but on water maps they own my expansions. xD

Statistics: Posted by atomcrusader — 22 Feb 2012, 00:49

Re: Auroras

2011-09-06T07:07:36+02:00

I agree with Gowerly. Just leave it. I've noticed Auroras can sometimes be a bit slow to respond too. Well one thing I'd recommend and could agree on after plenty of TESTING is like the Aeon Destroyer, make the shots less accurate while moving.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 06 Sep 2011, 07:07

Re: Auroras

2011-09-04T17:59:59+02:00

And that's precisely the issue I'm attempting to explain. By needing to forgo T1 land, you are necessarily giving up a huge amount of early map control to the aeon player. The aeon player can then use that eco advantage to fuel counters to whatever your initial counter was (more air, fast T2, guns, etc).

Yes, you can raid with bombers, but you can also micro your engies away from bombers fairly easily. Stationary T1 AA is cheap and quick to make with a couple engineers - and on most maps you only need 2-3 to effectively stop any decent amount of air. And, of course, if there's no T1 landspam to contest, the aeon player can always switch to full air.

I've recently started playing Aeon almost exclusively in FAF ranked. Granted I'm definitely not the best 1v1 player to start with, I've found they're quite easy to play compared to the other factions once you get the hang of aurora micro.

Making quick aurora spam to take as much of the map as possible, and then putting the brunt of your economy into air works exceptionally well. Especially considering that aeon has the strongest T2 air of any faction, thanks to mercies and swift winds; while that's getting a bit offtopic from this discussion, it helps to keep in mind that Aeon has one of the best "upgrade paths" in that regard.

I'm not saying that they're an "I win" button by any stretch of the imagination, but when microed well, they are indeed OP in their current form. No matter what, the defending player must always put in more effort to counter the auroras than the aeon player must in order to use the auroras.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 04 Sep 2011, 17:59

Re: Auroras

2011-09-04T17:50:10+02:00

Jesters, bombers, etc will make short work of labs. If you're up against aeon on island maps, you can just not build t1 land and use the resources to make aircraft. Their t1 mobile AA can't float, so you have free reign on them.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 04 Sep 2011, 17:50