Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-29T18:15:17+02:00

here the big advantage of the GC is the hp, he have 100000, thats really many hp if you give the the vet advantage a GC can be unstopable, i think that is right like is now

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 29 Sep 2011, 18:15

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-28T10:38:44+02:00

Indeed, the loyalists get sucked up by the GC, and then the GC sits there shooting the floor for 2.5 seconds until it sucks up the next loyalist.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 28 Sep 2011, 10:38

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-28T00:43:01+02:00

t2 shields t2 pd and an overcharging acu with the range upgrade and that ml is a nice chunk of mass. If you take the fast vetting from the ml cybran are screwed offensively at the experimental stage and they are not a defensive faction. The loyalists you speak of would get sucked up by the gc while it is using its main beam vs the ML. Shields with a GC is the most powerful land force outthere. Thermo x2 is relevant since it shows over and over how different experimentals match up against one another.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 28 Sep 2011, 00:43

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-28T00:34:26+02:00

the problem is if cybran rule early there is no game left to be played.
and what does thermo x2 slugfests have to do with balancing? its a custom cripple-mode where 90% of all units arent used, and changing vet on the ML still wouldnt change a damn thing facing other experimentals, which is all that matters in those modes. btw, if you send in a GC with shields for the same cost you can add loyalists to the ML and gimp the GC into a brainless tumbling bum.
for real, about even games where the players are agresssive and dont turtle up, a ML gains vet too fast to be taken down by anything else than tons of PD or T3 units. if you even got 1 tank missing to beat down the ML you still got a 4000dps unit roaming around and its getting health fast if you dont kill it.

its the friggen hit&run&get-all-life-back units that can end a game way to easily. changing vet would improve this, and i cant see how it effects turtly thermo-games.

Statistics: Posted by Unconsumeable — 28 Sep 2011, 00:34

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T20:28:45+02:00

Join a few x2 thermo games and you will get all the answers you need. The gc will beat a chicken straight up unless the chicken has vet or gets close enough so that it kills the gc after death. Aeon shield spam with gc's is so powerful that people will call you an exploiter when you do it well. GC and t2 shields is one area where the aeon really are the most powerful faction. The GC will have 150000 health if it gets 5 stars, so it is good that it takes 250 kills. A 5 star gc kills megaliths. Yotha with t3 shields is not viable since at this stage of the game you will have multiple yotha's and dying yotha's will erase all your shields very quickly. The current situation is perfect: Cybran rule early with ML, chicken/gc are very even with the chicken slightly better early on vs many units because of vet and in late game mutiple GC's will always beat any other experimentals. Then cybran get the mega to even things out.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 27 Sep 2011, 20:28

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T10:22:25+02:00

im not sure but i think at least ml and yhotta hit the shields.

Statistics: Posted by Isen — 27 Sep 2011, 10:22

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T10:17:58+02:00

Isen wrote:
you guys need to see the overal factions, cybran dont have shileds, the ml need the vet to survive, while with a gc you can take a shield spam to protect him, and as sera, t3 shields arent that effective and easily spamable as aeon. So i think the vet on experimental is ok, if you want to nerf ml vet, give them a shield lol

Spamming shields doen't always work with a GC. The collision bone is quite high and several units will just shoot over the shield.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 27 Sep 2011, 10:17

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T10:08:13+02:00

you guys need to see the overal factions, cybran dont have shileds, the ml need the vet to survive, while with a gc you can take a shield spam to protect him, and as sera, t3 shields arent that effective and easily spamable as aeon. So i think the vet on experimental is ok, if you want to nerf ml vet, give them a shield lol

Statistics: Posted by Isen — 27 Sep 2011, 10:08

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T07:37:42+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
Also the yotha vs gc diversity is great the way it is right now. Yotha having less health to begin with, but fast veterancy makes it a better experimental early on racking up kills vs regular units. In late games in experimental vs experimental battles the gc owns especially once it gets its 5 stars it is far superior to the yotha. Ask all those thermo x2 noobs. They have tested this over and over thousands of times.

I cant understand the logic here. The Ythotha can get veterancy in one shot if its mini orb of death hits a cluster of units. So, yes it is a strong experimental vs groups of units. But how is the GC going to get 5 star veterancy, 250 kills, going up against other experimentals? I think a slight nerf to Monkeylord and Ythotha and a slight buff to GC to bring them all into some semblance of consistency makes logical sense. Look at the amount of hp bonus each of them get.

The reason the Ythotha is bad en masse or late game doesnt have anything to do with veterancy but with the death orb damaging friendly units.

Statistics: Posted by Treble — 27 Sep 2011, 07:37

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T01:57:34+02:00

This is one of the best parts about the monkey lord. Getting those vets back to back to back. Give this experimental a chance to shine, since it only has that small gap between t3 and the time the bigger experimentals get on the field. Seems like this nerf would take away too much from the game. Also the yotha vs gc diversity is great the way it is right now. Yotha having less health to begin with, but fast veterancy makes it a better experimental early on racking up kills vs regular units. In late games in experimental vs experimental battles the gc owns especially once it gets its 5 stars it is far superior to the yotha. Ask all those thermo x2 noobs. They have tested this over and over thousands of times.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 27 Sep 2011, 01:57

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-27T01:41:35+02:00

I think a compromise is in order. I didnt change the hp boost, just based the number of kills based on the hp boost which is 10% of the units hp.

pFatboy: 25 kills (no change), +1250hp per vet level (not much compared to the other experimentals, possible to give the shield the regen bonus?)
Monkeylord: 30 kills (up from 25) , +4500hp per vet level
Ythotha: 35 kills (up from 25) , +6700hp per vet level
GC: 40 kills (down from 50) , +10000hp per vet level
Megalith: 40 kills (down from 50), +11000hp per vet level

Ahwassa: 35 kills (down from 50), +5200hp per vet level
Czar: 40 kills (no change ), +5800hp per vet level
Soul Ripper: 50 kills (up from 40), +9000hp per vet

Statistics: Posted by Treble — 27 Sep 2011, 01:41

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-26T19:02:02+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
ML has had its cost massively increased. It's harder to pump one out instantly now. The Ythotha also gets vet every 25 kills and its got massive AoE Nuke.
I would like to go the other way and get the GCs vet down to 40 to be on par with the Megalith, as I really can't see a reason why it's so high for the GC.

Time and time again you see a early (relatively to other exps and still earlier than tons of t3) ML, barely breaking down some armies and t2 turrets and shields, then vetting up almost dead and killing the rest of the base. you just dont see such "narrow beatdowns" with any other exp, A GC takes ages just to get through a couple shields, if you lose vs a GC the game is over before it gets its first vet level.

yhota is just another exp that would need the level to be raised, but as said its usually the ML that are used early and win the game. vetlevel should be a function of dps and health, currently its only proportional to health.

Statistics: Posted by Unconsumeable — 26 Sep 2011, 19:02

Re: Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-26T18:49:31+02:00

ML has had its cost massively increased. It's harder to pump one out instantly now. The Ythotha also gets vet every 25 kills and its got massive AoE Nuke.
I would like to go the other way and get the GCs vet down to 40 to be on par with the Megalith, as I really can't see a reason why it's so high for the GC.

Re: Jester. I can see your point with it, as it's currently the same as bombers, which have a much harder time killing 3 engineers (in general, yes a bomber can kill a whole bunch in a pass, but that happens less often). I would maybe take the Jester up to 4. Bombers are still more widely used, though.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 26 Sep 2011, 18:49

Lower vet leveling on Jesters and ML?

2011-09-26T18:44:36+02:00

I think those 2 get vet way too fast. early game a jester can still take out several engies while under fire by 2+ mobile AA, then fly off and continue killing and getting its health back quite fast. I propose setting vetlevels to every 5 kills

Later a first ML will have no problems vetting up several times unless you can counter it early with your own exp. Factors are:
Typically first exp thanks to lowest cost and fast movement speed, facing and eating "regular" armies
DPS is twice as high as GC,
Vetlevels are after 25 kills, GC takes 50.
Means it levels 4 times faster than a GC, which gets higher healthboosts so its ok that a ML levels somewhat faster, but 4 times faster ??? How often do you see a GC getting saved by vetlevels, how often a ML?
Id propose to rasie vetlevels to every 50 kills for the ML, it still has the most dps and beeing the earliest+fastest exp, but this should allow the opponents to actually wear it down with their existing T2/T3 forces.

Statistics: Posted by Unconsumeable — 26 Sep 2011, 18:44