Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-16T06:20:16+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
I strongly object to this depiction of the 3599 OC. You could kill many units at once often, it wasn't possible to kill 10 at a time like sometimes happens now, but otherwise it was very similar. The overcharge is also most useful against experimentals and it has been nerfed here, especially for newer players. How many times on thermo there is a noob standing next to you with an experimental coming your way, you tell them, whatever you do, don't shit your pants and run, if we all OC at the same time, we kill it and get a nice chunk of mass. The noob stays strong and hangs around, but is unable to overcharge because he forgot the powerstorage, and consequently dies while getting yelled at by the teammates who still have no idea why he didn't overcharge. This is a sad case that would not happen with the 3599 OC.

I don't think anyone's arguing whether it 'plays' better or anything like that. That's subjective and a matter of opinion, what is objective is that the mechanic is not intuitive and is forced/awkward now. There isn't even a tooltip that explains the 'requirements' of overcharge. Seriously, unless someone googled it they could never figure it out - and creating a game that requires you to google even the most fundamental mechanics seems like rather poor design. That's the main issue - even if a tooltip is added now it still would be an awkward design for the mechanic but it would probably help.

I agree with TA4 it's just another hurdle for growing the community, but again I think a tooltip would help.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 16 May 2012, 06:20

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-16T06:03:27+02:00

I strongly object to this depiction of the 3599 OC. You could kill many units at once often, it wasn't possible to kill 10 at a time like sometimes happens now, but otherwise it was very similar. The overcharge is also most useful against experimentals and it has been nerfed here, especially for newer players. How many times on thermo there is a noob standing next to you with an experimental coming your way, you tell them, whatever you do, don't shit your pants and run, if we all OC at the same time, we kill it and get a nice chunk of mass. The noob stays strong and hangs around, but is unable to overcharge because he forgot the powerstorage, and consequently dies while getting yelled at by the teammates who still have no idea why he didn't overcharge. This is a sad case that would not happen with the 3599 OC.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 16 May 2012, 06:03

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-16T03:59:18+02:00

Except you were lucky in 3599 to kill two tanks with an OC. If you got three tanks at once it was cause for parades in honor of your ultra micro/luck ability.

In 3603+ the OC's splash was increased, making killing handfuls of tanks much easier. While it requires an e storage, it was also buffed - and the balance is quite nice IMO.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 16 May 2012, 03:59

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-15T19:01:02+02:00

I think OC is a powerful but valuable feature for the game to have. In 3599 you just get a bit lucky, OC twice and kill 8 tanks in the first 5 mins of the game and win. However it still makes overcharge a nice feature for large swarms slightly later in the game and early tech rushes. I like it in 3614 and it should stay as it is.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 15 May 2012, 19:01

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-15T07:52:20+02:00

Pavese wrote:
OC is as imba as it always was.

Adding storage and increasing cost only made it harder to spam, not weaker in its effect.

Let's not lose from perspective it is a core signature of the game that is a inheritance from TA, where it was even more powerfull.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 15 May 2012, 07:52

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T22:26:34+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
Jace wrote:if you aren't capable of managing your eco without stalling your power i suppose thats true.

Please don't personally attack/insult people. It looks very bad on you. You could have phrased that in a non insulting way.

You don't seem to get my point. I was saying that you will need less overall power because you will waste less so therefore less mass invested in pgens and therefore saving mass.

I don't see any insult in that sentence. Being capable of something or not can have many causes. Not all of them are the fault of the player?

I see what you want to tell me, but i tell you: that may be true for maps without much stuff to reclaim. As soon as you have enough Mass those additional EStorages instead of energy will slow you down. Unfortuately, like i see it: almost all of the frequently played maps have enough stuff to reclaim.

Statistics: Posted by Jace — 14 May 2012, 22:26

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T21:43:38+02:00

isnt there a tool tip thing on FA? maybe post it somewhere obviously, that you need estorage buildings for oc?

fancy idea: show random tips somewhere either in FAF or the game lobby itself where this could be one (feature that could be customised in the settings)

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 14 May 2012, 21:43

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T20:42:13+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
Jace wrote:
SJAndrew wrote:I see e-storage in T3 quite a bit. I wrap pgens with it and then use its primary prupose, STORAGE, for quick upgrades etc.

Then you are actually wasting mass. calculate it and you will see.

No. If you have a large E storage then you don't get so many power stalls and shields/stealth don't break because all it takes is one arty shell to kill a few shields and then the base is finished. OR those TMLS have been discovered. It can actually save you mass because you don't need such a huge E income as it smooths it out.

This.

I use e-storage for STORAGE not production.

E-stall can be death (esp for a stealthed TML base). In pretty much all phases of the game, E is in surplus. A couple of e-storage (might as well wrap them around a pgen mid-to-late game) can be hugely important in preventing e-stall AND not wasting all of that energy.

I'm not trying to pass myself off as a pro or anything. My rating is around 1500 or so, so I'm certainly not. From my perspective as a 'decent' player is that e-storage and OC in its current form is fine.

Statistics: Posted by SJAndrew — 14 May 2012, 20:42

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T19:19:24+02:00

Jace wrote:
if you aren't capable of managing your eco without stalling your power i suppose thats true.

Please don't personally attack/insult people. It looks very bad on you. You could have phrased that in a non insulting way.

You don't seem to get my point. I was saying that you will need less overall power because you will waste less so therefore less mass invested in pgens and therefore saving mass.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 14 May 2012, 19:19

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T19:01:58+02:00

if you aren't capable of managing your eco without stalling your power i suppose thats true. i on my part just need one storage for OC and 2more when i get t3arty

Statistics: Posted by Jace — 14 May 2012, 19:01

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T18:04:39+02:00

Jace wrote:
SJAndrew wrote:I see e-storage in T3 quite a bit. I wrap pgens with it and then use its primary prupose, STORAGE, for quick upgrades etc.

Then you are actually wasting mass. calculate it and you will see.

No. If you have a large E storage then you don't get so many power stalls and shields/stealth don't break because all it takes is one arty shell to kill a few shields and then the base is finished. OR those TMLS have been discovered. It can actually save you mass because you don't need such a huge E income as it smooths it out.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 14 May 2012, 18:04

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T16:37:13+02:00

SJAndrew wrote:
I see e-storage in T3 quite a bit. I wrap pgens with it and then use its primary prupose, STORAGE, for quick upgrades etc.

Then you are actually wasting mass. calculate it and you will see.

Statistics: Posted by Jace — 14 May 2012, 16:37

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T16:18:51+02:00

I see e-storage in T3 quite a bit. I wrap pgens with it and then use its primary prupose, STORAGE, for quick upgrades etc.

What I also like about the necessary e-storage is it makes for something worth protecting and woth sniping. An undefended e-storage is a great target. If you can kill it before you rush the opponent ACU, he can be helpless: another layer of tactics that was not there before.

The bottom line, to me: I see NOTHING wrong with the current e-storage/OC setup and vastly prefer it to 3599. This is after getting overrun the first couple of games in FAF and learning the new mechanic and ALSO getting killed late game by a monkey on roanoke (I would have not lost in 3599 as I could have OC'ed, in FAF I realized I did not build e-storage - lesson learned).

To me, if you don't like the new OC mechanic, it means you relied on it too much before and didn't build enough tanks.

Granted, many players issues come from the latter.

Statistics: Posted by SJAndrew — 14 May 2012, 16:18

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T13:48:25+02:00

OC is as imba as it always was.

Adding storage and increasing cost only made it harder to spam, not weaker in its effect.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 14 May 2012, 13:48

Re: Restoration of 3599 EStorage/Overcharge?

2012-05-14T10:29:30+02:00

SJAndrew wrote:
As far as I know, the OC frequency is no different. I think it just costs much more energy (I could be wrong - I have not felt a different frequency while playing). It CAN indeed be spammed once you have e-storage. Needing to build it just means that the initial 3-4 minutes of the game actually require you to make units (a novel idea).

Don't mistake me, but it is indeed different. You have to overbuild Energy quite much in order to spam it compared to earlier. If you would go with a low Energy maximum Units build for early game you wont be able to use OC like it was possible previously.
A OC build cuts indeed quite a few units you could have otherwise. I don't say its bad to go for OC.
If you dont feel that something has changed you most like did overbuild your energy earlier.

SJAndrew wrote:
The adjacency argument you cite, to me, is not compelling. The adjancency of e-storage is only profound in T3 anyway, and then you have shields etc. Early T1, build it off to the side by itself and don't wrap your hydro or whatever with it. You will be fine. I don't see anyone who is decent building EARLY e-storage adjacent to anything.

And you don't even see it in T3 phase. And thats because it wont pay off in any case. It offends me that it isn't usable to anyhting else than getting one for OC and later 2 or three more for T3Arty. And while having only so much use to have so much death damage.

SJAndrew wrote:
The buildorder you need is not anymore complex or idiosyncratic than 3599. I did not play 3603 or the new FAF versions until GPG died. It took me about 5-10 games to learn how to deal with the new OC mechanic and I like it much better.

I intended that thought to new players. Who would think that OC needs a Estorage for activation. Its not listet anywhere. and actually new players can do quite some wrong with the new mechanic, as they have to learn more than one buildorder to find into the close combat gameplay.
You are right when you say that expierenced players have no problems to adapt the new concept.

SJAndrew wrote:
Ultimately, the new OC mechanic and new deathnuke make early T1 much better imo. Now, you actually need tanks and support units as well as AA or air in order to trot your ACU out. This, to me, makes for a MUCH more dynamic early T1 than 3599 where you could send you ACU out naked without much consequence (on many maps).

Why you think that? the fact that OC now deals quite some damage to the commander forces you to build for it on small maps and go with weapon upgrade. If your opponent doesn't, he is dead.
Unfortunately on small maps you will need your commander at the frontline. If you dont go for OC you may have 15 or 20tanks more, but its hard to use that advantage because more units actually mean more feed to the weapon upgrade. and that advantage is eaten very fast by a commander with weaponUP.
So in the End it returns the change i thought positive of back to the forced shootout between commanders.

Statistics: Posted by Jace — 14 May 2012, 10:29