Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-21T10:47:00+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
T3 navy is pretty much just the battleship. I like battleship-centric gameplay, although they really are very strong. Every ship can be cost-effectively beaten by torpedo bombers, though, so I don't really see how it can be an issue. Also, if your enemy is massing T3 ships, the best counter to nuke his fleet. You're guaranteed to kill at least 2 bships out of a pack of 4.

That or do drops of land units in his base. Battleships aren't fast. I'm pretty confident that t2 and t3 navy is cost effectively beaten by strat bombers, too. Either way, unless the cruisers are within range of your air factories, you should be able to build enough to win the day.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 21 Sep 2011, 10:47

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-21T00:49:44+02:00

T3 navy is pretty much just the battleship. I like battleship-centric gameplay, although they really are very strong. Every ship can be cost-effectively beaten by torpedo bombers, though, so I don't really see how it can be an issue. Also, if your enemy is massing T3 ships, the best counter to nuke his fleet. You're guaranteed to kill at least 2 bships out of a pack of 4.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 21 Sep 2011, 00:49

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-20T22:26:16+02:00

That, and they need the OP T3 navy to counter hover snipers... >.>

http://88.191.143.136/faforever/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=49&start=20

I think we should test navy and see if it really is OP or not.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 20 Sep 2011, 22:26

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T19:41:49+02:00

In addition, I'd say that t3 navy has become slightly OP.
But noone belives me, coz they ain't playing that much naval maps and are used to focus on land and air

Statistics: Posted by Raging_Squirrel — 19 Sep 2011, 19:41

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T15:40:41+02:00

I see... we're talking about teamgames.

The problem is, the game first and foremost needs to be balanced for 1v1s. With teamgames, the relative skills of each player on both teams is usually a much larger deciding factor as it's so difficult to get a truly balanced 3v3/4v4. Even so, in your example, assuming the map is Roanoke and all players are of high and comparable skill, then the team that lost navy is fundamentally lost if all of them lost navy. Not building navy on a naval map is... a recipe for disaster.

To put it another way, what about a map like Open Palms? It's mandatory to go land there. That's not right! I want to win by using nothing but air!

I simply don't see how navy is any different from land or air. It's simply mandatory to go navy on naval maps, just as it's mandatory to go land on land maps and equally mandatory to go air on air maps (eg, continuing the teamgame example - have you ever played a Setons where the back guy made no air, and the team won? I've not seen this...)

And yes, it's probably best to continue this in another topic.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 19 Sep 2011, 15:40

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T15:33:48+02:00

Sure if you lose land or air you're screwed, we are both ok with this statement.
But you can gain time with defense before the teammates try to help you. You have some non-land counters against land (turrets, shields) and some non-air counters against air (turrets, shields, AA).
At least you can do something.

The only real counter against naval...is naval. T2 arty is almost useless. Torpedo bombers are ok but you will lose air shortly as you produce more Torpedo and less inties. Hover-units are raped by fregates and torpedo-turrets are a waste of mass.

When you lose naval, you can't do something to counterbalance the tide of the game.
And I don't see a way to balance it...if you buff T2 Arty, you will turn FA to a turtle game...maybe by buffing torpedo-turrets?

Ok it's a bit offtopic but as a naval-fan (Roanoke is my favorite map), I think naval is not well balanced versus land or air. It's too powerful.
And since T3 naval got a massive buff, it's mandatory now to go naval on naval maps. Somehow that's not right.
But it's only my opinion

(We can discuss it on another topic if you want)

P.S:
Since I've not played a game with those shipwrecks, it's maybe less hard to defend against naval now.
At least you can try to stay in the ecowar...

Statistics: Posted by Kekouse — 19 Sep 2011, 15:33

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T15:17:58+02:00

With shipwreck, you can try defend with T2 artys, and reclaim the wrecks if you succeed, so you stay in the competition.

Of course, against t3 navy you are fucked (Except if you have nukes)

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 19 Sep 2011, 15:17

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T15:15:08+02:00

I don't see how this is true Kekouse.

If you lose land, you will die. You can try building PDs, but MMLs, snipers, and arty will pound your defenses until you can be steamrolled. You have also necessarily lost mapcontrol because of this, which your enemy will use to quickly overwhelm whatever defenses you come up with.
If you lose air, you will die. You now have to waste a ton of mass putting flak and AA everywhere, which your enemy will capitalize on. Late game, nothing can stop a group of ~10 T3 bombers if you have no ASF.
Similarly, if you lose navy, you will die. You can try building arties and maybe even TML / mercies / torps / etc but in all likelyhood, you're still going to die as the enemy has the advantage.

It's probably a physiological thing as you can try to stave off, say, MMLs a bit longer than you could a destroyer pounding your base. The problem is, fundamentally, the argument boils down to "I screwed up, please help me protect me from myself by giving me an easy way to come back from the bad decision I put myself in". And if we do that, then it becomes pointless to build navy, or whatever other unit we're talking about using this reasoning.

It's all rather tangential and offtopic to the OP though.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 19 Sep 2011, 15:15

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T14:24:35+02:00

But I think it's a problem.
If you lose Air or Land, you have always a way to defend yourself or at least to gain time. Building AA or Turrets for example.
Ok you are in a bad situation, ok you'll probably lose in the end but it's not over.

When you lose Naval, it's over. And quick.
You can't build turrets, Arty is at best meh, Air is a possibility when your opponent is not clever and forget to build cruisers.
But in 99% of the time, losing naval is losing the game in the next 5 minutes.

For myself I think it's bad because it remove possibilities in the game. Naval map? You have to go Naval. You lose it? You can CTRL-K your com because you have no way to come back in the game.
It was always like this but since the naval part is upped on FaF with the patch, it's even more the case now.
On all games, you can lose Air or Land...it's bad for sure but you have possibilities to come back in the game.
Not with Naval and that's sad.

Statistics: Posted by Kekouse — 19 Sep 2011, 14:24

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T14:13:03+02:00

The thing with naval vs. air is, once you are kicked out of the sea there is no way to get it back except for air, really.

There probably needs to be some way of taking back the sea via land structures and units, and only then is it safe to make air equal/weaker than sea.

As it should be. If you lose navy, on most maps you are *royally* screwed. You already have mobile T3 arty and stationary T2 arty as land defenses to get back into the sea, as you have T2 hover units. If there's anything more cost-effective to retake the seas, then why even bother building navy in the first place?

Moral of the story: don't lose navy! If you do, you failed, and probably deserve to lose.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 19 Sep 2011, 14:13

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T14:10:30+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
Either make these units be able to target submerged units automatically, without needing to attack ground

Why the hell everyone wants that??? I'm sobbing and stomping the ground.

Perhaps I should've been clearer with this. I only suggest it as an alternative because it's so obviously ridiculous, and underlines the current situation's ludicrousness.

This comic is relevant, specifically the last panel: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-02-25/ :p (to be clear, in this example I'm Dilbert and the PHB is... anyone who's agreeing that we should be able to automatically target submerged units with ground fire weapons)

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 19 Sep 2011, 14:10

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T11:54:31+02:00

The thing with naval vs. air is, once you are kicked out of the sea there is no way to get it back except for air, really.

There probably needs to be some way of taking back the sea via land structures and units, and only then is it safe to make air equal/weaker than sea.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 19 Sep 2011, 11:54

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-19T00:49:20+02:00

If RS is right saying that the AOE is a cylinder, i think we should just remove the ability to shoot submerged units, as it would just be a bug. If you could fix that, then allow to target submerged units.

Statistics: Posted by Sapristi — 19 Sep 2011, 00:49

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-18T21:47:37+02:00

Funk: You should know what I mean (and be able to read the t2 bit)
The cruiser, as the example, is incredibly good against air (as in it's the AA ship of choice) get can also destroy land units.
The torp bomber is designed to do only one thing, destroy naval or underwater units. It also can't detect stealth, so needs omni vision if it's going to detect the t2 stealth subs or anything under cybran's medusa or t3 sonar.

Also, pedantry: subs are boats, not ships.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 18 Sep 2011, 21:47

Re: Underwater target hit by a ground weapon

2011-09-18T20:04:10+02:00

Gowerly: The Aeon AA boat, all subs (except sms), cooper, shield boat, intel boat and all carriers (but seraphim) are useless against land, just like the torp bomber, yet they all lose to torp bombers.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 18 Sep 2011, 20:04