balance advancement

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Re: balance advancement

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 14 Jan 2019, 14:40

No. You don't set up your "heavily defended area" before you build your game ender, you actually build a reasonable number of shields and THEN try to rush up your gameender.

You will get away with hardcore spamming shields later. In a situation where both teams rush a gameender the team that will spend 3 min just to spam up shields will lose. So, my point does make sense. You simply make 2 smaller bases with a couple of shields and just move to your second base when you need to hit things that are further away.

*you don’t have to move it insanely far away*
There is more than one place on the map where you can move your scathis. And it is also not as black and white as you want to make it look. Moving your scathis to another place has a risk-reward relation. Yes it can die, but on the same note it can also do more damage. Simply stating that it is a bad idea is just wrong.
You have to adjust your decision to the situation - which you seem to happily ignore in every single post of yours and rather blame “cancer jagged balance!!!!!!!!!!!”

The point that I am trying to convey is:

All Sides lost:
- No gameender except para might save you

One side won and there is a gamender rush on both teams
- Hey you can build it near the won lane and move it to a place where it can hit more stuff more reliably!!!!!

Both sides won
- Only a para can safe those guys, otherwise you won it if you don’t make any severe mistakes

Apofenas wrote:Same as with very old Scathis, you couldn't see its icon on map because it isn't structure that was pain in the ass on big maps. Yet it was so important unit that you could just ground fire the centre of protected area with most shields and almost certainly hit Scathis.


If you have difficulties spotting a scathis because it isn’t a structure, you should maybe consider watching when you/someone else scouts.

Apofenas wrote:Similiar Scathis had similiar price, similiar utility and even similiar accuracy problems. Now the question, was it used as a unit which has to come in range of t3 arty? May be somebody who played this game back than could enlighten us.

Why would any of that matter? I am talking about the current situation and not something that happened ages ago.

Apofenas wrote:If you have to move Scathis to range of t3 arty in order to use of it, why bother with this version at all? Since maps bigger than 20x20 aren't considered, why try making Scathis kinda-usefull for 40x40? Instead could make Scathis an analogue of T3 arty. Something like one keyser(?) tried initially before it was redone to EQ analogue by IceDreamer(?). https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/26 ... 6ee0f8f4bd


Who ever said that you must move it into T3 Arty range?
Your t3 arty also has a difficult time killing ships, nuke subs, proxies, or anything in fact since they are kind of weak. You also just showed us how the scathis completely wrecked that mega… did you forget about that already? Can t3 arties do that?? Can a mavor do that??

Apofenas wrote:I would be curious how decision making was done: which variants were discussed by balance team and what points were brought in before this concept was published here. But don't mind me, I already know some inside info.


Since you are trying to derail this discussion anyway, mind sharing your top-secret inside info then? Also: Who cares, the product is what counts, which in this case is pretty good.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Apofenas » 14 Jan 2019, 17:19

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Apofenas wrote:
Spoiler: show
Same as with very old Scathis, you couldn't see its icon on map because it isn't structure that was pain in the ass on big maps. Yet it was so important unit that you could just ground fire the centre of protected area with most shields and almost certainly hit Scathis.


If you have difficulties spotting a scathis because it isn’t a structure, you should maybe consider watching when you/someone else scouts.


You probably fail to understand the point? It isn't about that you may need a constant scouting on Scathis to know its exact location on map and lock on your units on it. It is about that the most defended place in the area is the place where game ender located.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Apofenas wrote:Similiar Scathis had similiar price, similiar utility and even similiar accuracy problems. Now the question, was it used as a unit which has to come in range of t3 arty? May be somebody who played this game back than could enlighten us.

Why would any of that matter? I am talking about the current situation and not something that happened ages ago.


Because it probably matters? Since that was same Scathis with same issues and with different fire circle? Remind me why that concept was removed :?: Why was expensive 10x10 game ender was replaced with cheap 10x10 game ender? ahem... poor accuracy at long ranges?

Why do we re-introduce the game ender which has effective range of t3 arty?
QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Who ever said that you must move it into T3 Arty range?

Probably tests on how Scathis performs on different distances? From what i've seen, it couldn't break whatever defences I put from air to air positions and could do that from mid to air - that is the range of t3 arty.

This is my very first issue with this concept. Why does Scathis has to have this range issue? Even at 20x20 map it shows somewhat 5x5 km spread that doesn't allow it to fight other game enders. You're saying it should be balanced around 20x20? Please count the amount of popular non-gap/non-ladder/non-survival 20x20 team game maps. With that said it's pretty clear this change was based on Seton's clutch only.

In this specific case the unit must be balanced around 40x40km map since that's literally its range now(2k). I already suggested how I think it would be possible to improve (a) its accuracy for long ranges, (b) its performance in game ender fight and (c) decrease its efficiency on smaller distances. Right now i didn't hear anything constructive on those changes.

I don't take bullshit like "We don't balance around 40x40 maps", "It has different role...not supposed to do so...does other things better". Math and replays pls.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Your t3 arty also has a difficult time killing ships, nuke subs, proxies, or anything in fact since they are kind of weak. You also just showed us how the scathis completely wrecked that mega… did you forget about that already? Can t3 arties do that?? Can a mavor do that??


If you bothered to read what I actually wrote and open a link i put there, you would see a Scathis with cost of 80k mass, 1k damage per shot, 0.5 ROF and 650 range (AKA analogue of T3 arty). Turin's Scathis concept shoots 60 shots/min with 2k DPS total; Keyser's Scathis concept with 500 DPS, so technicly you get around 3 of these for same cost and they WOULD DO THAT.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Since you are trying to derail this discussion anyway, mind sharing your top-secret inside info then? Also: Who cares, the product is what counts, which in this case is pretty good.


As far as I know, this change is a result of one person joking around in sandbox for an afternoon and suddenly we get new prototype of Scathis. Not a planned or tested change, just random thing. No discussion about potential problems of this concept, no discussion about its interactions with other game enders and most importnatly no discussion about alternatives.

And this is most important thing considering we already have at least 3 versions of Scathis mentioned during just this discussion. And i'd like to know what exactly is wrong with them and why we get prototype similiar to problematic one we got rid off long ago? How much work was put on calculating and sandboxing these concepts?

Reminds me how much time and effort Ithilis put into calculating, sandboxing and testing EQ long ago...
VictimOfJaggedBalance wrote:IMO Scathis is in a perfect spot right now - nobody's using it, so nobody's complaining about it, just like fire beetles.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Endranii » 14 Jan 2019, 17:58

As long as it costs 40k less than mavor I'm fine with what ever it will be. Or you know what, just buff the range by 100-150.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Yolo- » 14 Jan 2019, 18:00

Hi, I am excited to try out the new scathis.
I hope it comes to the beta soon, so we can try it out. We probably need 50-100 setons games to test it properly a few times.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby FtXCommando » 14 Jan 2019, 18:31

Apofenas wrote:
Reminds me how much time and effort Ithilis put into calculating, sandboxing and testing EQ long ago...


Reminds me how much time and effort Ithilis spent trying to justify the new garbage vet system long ago...
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Re: balance advancement

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 14 Jan 2019, 18:46

Apofenas wrote:You probably fail to understand the point? It isn't about that you may need a constant scouting on Scathis to know its exact location on map and lock on your units on it. It is about that the most defended place in the area is the place where game ender located.


That’s very nice to know and totally not what you said.
“Same as with very old Scathis, you couldn't see its icon on map because it isn't structure that was pain in the ass on big maps”
This is what you said. But yes I don’t understand the point ofc.

Apofenas wrote:Because it probably matters? Since that was same Scathis with same issues and with different fire circle? Remind me why that concept was removed :?: Why was expensive 10x10 game ender was replaced with cheap 10x10 game ender? ahem... poor accuracy at long ranges?
Why do we re-introduce the game ender which has effective range of t3 arty?


Let me fix that for you: It is a different scathis, with different balancing factors and a completely revamped fire cycle.

Why was it removed? Because it was broken. What does this have to do with how the current Scathis? Nothing - since it is a completely different unit now. You are literally comparing completely different units – claim they have the same problems and thereby suck, while completely ignoring the fact that the goal of the unit and balancing factors are different now.

Apofenas wrote:Probably tests on how Scathis performs on different distances? From what i've seen, it couldn't break whatever defences I put from air to air positions and could do that from mid to air - that is the range of t3 arty.


Ah now its “whatever defences” – NOW it all becomes clear to me, I know your exact testing methods now and can make a definite statement on the balancing of the Scathis!


Apofenas wrote:This is my very first issue with this concept. Why does Scathis has to have this range issue? Even at 20x20 map it shows somewhat 5x5 km spread that doesn't allow it to fight other game enders. You're saying it should be balanced around 20x20?


1. Why does it have to have this range issue? Because it is a balancing factor and it can move.
2. Gap isn’t 20x20 its ~20x12 – only a miniscule difference I know

Apofenas wrote:Please count the amount of popular non-gap/non-ladder/non-survival 20x20 team game maps. With that said it's pretty clear this change was based on Seton's clutch only.


Yes! Gameenders should be balanced around 10km ladder maps and not the maps in which they actually appear in!

Apofenas wrote:In this specific case the unit must be balanced around 40x40km map since that's literally its range now(2k).


Right! Imo the Mavor should be balanced around 80km maps since that’s literally its range (4k).

Apofenas wrote:I already suggested how I think it would be possible to improve (a) its accuracy for long ranges, (b) its performance in game ender fight and (c) decrease its efficiency on smaller distances. Right now i didn't hear anything constructive on those changes.


Because you ignore everything.


Apofenas wrote:I don't take bullshit like "We don't balance around 40x40 maps", "It has different role...not supposed to do so...does other things better".


I concur! The balance team should start balancing the game around extreme edge cases and map nobody plays!

Apofenas wrote:If you bothered to read what I actually wrote and open a link i put there, you would see a Scathis with cost of 80k mass, 1k damage per shot, 0.5 ROF and 650 range (AKA analogue of T3 arty). Turin's Scathis concept shoots 60 shots/min with 2k DPS total; Keyser's Scathis concept with 500 DPS, so technicly you get around 3 of these for same cost and they WOULD DO THAT.


Great to know, thanks for all this totally useful information and not responding to my questions

Apofenas wrote:As far as I know, this change is a result of one person joking around in sandbox for an afternoon and suddenly we get new prototype of Scathis. Not a planned or tested change, just random thing. No discussion about potential problems of this concept, no discussion about its interactions with other game enders and most importnatly no discussion about alternatives.


Even if that is true, tell me:
Does spending lots of time on something always lead to good results?
Does spending little time on something always mean it’s going to be bad?

Apofenas wrote:And this is most important thing considering we already have at least 3 versions of Scathis mentioned during just this discussion. And i'd like to know what exactly is wrong with them and why we get prototype similiar to problematic one we got rid off long ago? How much work was put on calculating and sandboxing these concepts?

In what way is it similar to what we already had? Because it is inaccurate????

Apofenas wrote:Reminds me how much time and effort Ithilis put into calculating, sandboxing and testing EQ long ago...


Do you think the balance team won’t do that? The scathis release isn’t even in the beta version yet. You are literally complaining about something being unfinished WHEN ITS NOT EVEN RELEASED YET.
Last edited by QuestionMarkNoob on 17 Jan 2019, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Turinturambar » 14 Jan 2019, 19:43

idk which version you used to test the damage but I have a feeling you used the version that existed for some time while I was adjusting projectilespeed. if you test current version (or the prior verson which had proper dps) you will find that is usually able to break sth like your smd template (smd with 4-6 T3 shields around it) in 2 rounds, if youre unlucky in 3 rounds. from airbase to enemy airbase.
also once again the corellation between distance and accuracy of current scathis is intended. and obv its balanced around setons since average 10x10 ends with T3 arty if even.
if you still fail to see the purpose of this version of the scathis, meaning in what situations it should be used, why it is not a mavor 2.0, andwhat it is supposed to be able to kill pls think about that first since the current behaviour is intended (if it ends up being too good/bad is sth to be tested in real games).
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Apofenas » 15 Jan 2019, 15:39

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Because you ignore everything.

You're the one ignoring everything I wrote not me. Sometimes even failing to see what you wrote yourself. Neither you have anything to supply your words. Sorry, i don't feel like arguing with you. I won't answer you anymove, i just don't care now. Have a nice day.

Let's see. I didn't recieve any reasonable idea what game ender base should look like. So there is a testing recording. Using only air player's mexes and 50k power (no fab, RAS SCU eco and no eco from other positions). Yolo, 8 T3 shields, tele defence, 18 bots and some mass (considering difference between Yolo cost and Scathis) to spam shields. Some targets located around yolo: 3 nuke defences, 2 air grids with power, air player's mex cluster. Some SCUs spreaded around paused with t2 shields queued up.



Tried Scathis in 3 positions: around 900, 700 and 500 ranges. This is very very rough test, yet this should show why I don't believe into this Scathis. Especially in its utility at ranges bigger than t3 arties (trying to shoot across 20x20 would be pointless and across 40x40 - stupid; that just doesnt work). Used this code https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2699

If anyone could show me video material about how this needs to be used for devastating bases and armies, feel free to send some replays or video material.
VictimOfJaggedBalance wrote:IMO Scathis is in a perfect spot right now - nobody's using it, so nobody's complaining about it, just like fire beetles.
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Re: balance advancement

Postby Farmsletje » 15 Jan 2019, 16:26

Are you actually serious?

At the start you show 36 t3 sera shields which cost a total of 130k mass (152k mass even if you take the 18k power thats required to power them in account). Then you spend another 50k mass from storage by fortifying the area aroun the yolo with 30+ shields. Then the scathis is STILL breaking through killing multiple of the shields and you're having to spend all your mass to rebuild them. Then at some point you reach 50 fucking sera t2/t3 shields and a volley of projectiles STILL makes it through and kills 8 t3 shields.

And all this is while the scathis isn't even meant to break through highly defended area's, but to kill everything BUT the highly defended area's.

If anything this almost shows how completely busted it is and it probably deserves a damage nerf
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Re: balance advancement

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 15 Jan 2019, 16:33

Apofenas wrote:Some targets located around yolo: 3 nuke defences, 2 air grids with power, air player's mex cluster. Some SCUs spreaded around paused with t2 shields queued up.


You do realise that not even a mavor could break those shields, right? One could even hold of 2 mavors with that setup.

Apofenas wrote:Tried Scathis in 3 positions: around 900, 700 and 500 ranges. This is very very rough test, yet this should show why I don't believe into this Scathis. Especially in its utility at ranges bigger than t3 arties (trying to shoot across 20x20 would be pointless and across 40x40 - stupid; that just doesnt work). Used this code https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2699


Nice confirmation bias you got there.

Testing with the strongest shields in the game, insane buildpower, very flat terrain, no other random mobile units like engies around the area and very little buildings around it.

Very realistic!

That’s just a Dual Gap sandbox and not more.

Apofenas wrote:You're the one ignoring everything I wrote not me.


> Ignores me and stops responding

Apofenas wrote:Sometimes even failing to see what you wrote yourself. Neither you have anything to supply your words.


Ah, so let’s ignore the text wall I wrote.

Apofenas wrote:Sorry, i don't feel like arguing with you. I won't answer you anymove, i just don't care now. Have a nice day.


Yes, from one second to the next, you don’t care anymore. What a nice way to end a conversation when the arguments run out.

Apofenas wrote:Let's see. I didn't recieve any reasonable idea what game ender base should look like.


I literally told you twice.

Apofenas wrote:So there is a testing recording. Using only air player's mexes and 50k power (no fab, RAS SCU eco and no eco from other positions). Yolo, 8 T3 shields, tele defence, 18 bots and some mass (considering difference between Yolo cost and Scathis) to spam shields.


I am sure you cosideredered those 6.000.000 energy that the yolo costs more xD Also lol that you simply ignored the mass fabs.
Last edited by QuestionMarkNoob on 15 Jan 2019, 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
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