Norfair Feedback Thread

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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Morax » 18 Dec 2018, 19:41

We are too busy playing the game, we dont want to spend Any time deciphering the map.


Anihilnine, that is part of the game, bud.... look at Vya-3 and you will see it's not all "flat and simple" terrain, nor are a lot of the maps.

I don't really think this is valid in general. It only applies to Norfair because some of the ramps are a tad extreme...
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Anihilnine » 19 Dec 2018, 03:08

Hey "bud" well you asked for feedback. It's up to you what you do with it.
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby ThomasHiatt » 19 Dec 2018, 10:38

I do think that it is valid in general. I would like every map to be flat and simple. I see no reason why Vya-3 could not just be 1 flat layer of terrain while still retaining the impassable cliffs and knolls which are surrounded by reclaim. Vya-3 is not a particularly bad map but I do clearly remember one occasion where one of the hills caused my opponents monkeylord to be permanently stuck allowing me to win an otherwise lost game. If it was a flat map that wouldn't happen. Syrtis is another example of a classic map that would be much better if it was flatter. Syrtis pretty much has 3 separate layers, but they are not flat at all. That just makes it difficult to place buildings and you have to place PD's very carefully to avoid having them shoot into the ground, it is such a problem that it is just generally accepted that you cannot make t2 PD if you are playing Cybran or Seraphim.
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Morax » 19 Dec 2018, 14:05

The point of terrain having ramps and e.t.c is to cause a disadvantage...

You guys do know that if you hold space bar and move your mouse you can see in 3d, right? I'm going to assume that's a yes...

Regardless, understood and I'll reduce ramps by a ton up and coming. They won't go 100% away, but a little, slight grade here and there should be fine.

I can't imagine all maps being completely flat... so boring and easy
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby biass » 19 Dec 2018, 15:28

I think it is more a case of lack of visual clarity when it comes to conveying information to the player that terrain - or at least height changes - exist in certain areas.
Before you start up some excuse about how biass is ranting on about aesthetics again, outside of myself and a few others hiding ramps and other terrain is that major point of contention that determines your map score for aesthetics - 25% of the final score that determines the frequency your map appears in the ladder pool. (This is for your information, followed by decal scaling, and then mountain appearance when it comes to most common judgements made by the team.)

I am going to fire off a few examples i found.

Here for example, the map fails to convey that the terrain changes because any lighting that would have otherwise shown that are blocked out by over-scaled erosion decals.
The terrain dips in height totalling more than the height of a Galactic Colossus in this area in particular.

Image

It also happens here, although you cannot see the decals, what is conveyed to be a flat path from the top view actually has massive deviations in height both. I would also make a claim that for example Cybran t2 PD can fire down into that valley is because terraforming raises the gun high enough to shoot over the rest of the slope.

Image

Despite all of this the real issue appears to be your lighting, because it is directed in such a way that it doesn't cast shadows/highlights over your slopes. This means even if the other issues were removed people would still not see the terrain properly.

I am not handing out freebies after reading this thread but here is my "corrections".
Image

See now how where i discussed in the low left/top right corners clearly convey a dip in slope, The middle crossover lanes have a tiny bit of shadow cast into them to show the convex, The spawns also now how they're in a ditch also, and finally, how the valleys on the edges of the middle show they're in-between the ground and the raised platform. see also how the removal of the lava texture removes the horrendous cracking abomination and makes the map look infinitely better.

Some misc tips for next time however.
- Don't use macro textures for strata layers
- Change the actual macrotexture on your map to suit your theme because yours is currently evergreen.
- Lay off the worldmachine
- Set a starting height of around 50 or so so you have room to adjust water layers (instead of having water appear at 10)
- Don't overscale the 2 same god damn decals and throw them all across the map because i am going to have a stroke.

finally:
Morax wrote:You guys do know that if you hold space bar and move your mouse you can see in 3d, right? I'm going to assume that's a yes...

This is not an excuse, it should not lie to the player to figure out information a map should convey, while in the middle of a ladder game.

Good luck on your next map.
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Morax » 19 Dec 2018, 17:57

Biass, that's perfectly good feedback, spare the "horrendous lava cracks in mountains" one.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evergreen" macro textures as I don't use any. Could you explain what you mean by that? Am I missing something? Maybe the GPG editor is feeding false info as the ozonex one doesn't really communicate its features well all the time.

Thanks for the points, though!

As for world machine, nahhhhh. You just need to post process it in the game editor so it doesn't warp things. I did this with Frithen, and am going to apply those lessons to next Norfair version.

I'm 100% confident Norfair can see a score raise by ThomasHiatt after I address all the concerns he and you outlined.

Thanks : )
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby biass » 20 Dec 2018, 06:46

Macro textures are low resolution and are designed to be stretched across the map as giant transparent textures, i don't recommend using them outside of this or other niche circumstances and anyone paying attention will spot these textures like a hawk.

They go here.

Image
Image

Morax wrote:Maybe the GPG editor is feeding false info as the ozonex one doesn't really communicate its features well all the time.


Can we stop blaming the FAF editor?
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Anihilnine » 20 Dec 2018, 07:18

My point was not to remove all ramps and levels.

Just make it super obvious where the ramps and levels are. So stay by having a simple map design then use shading well.
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Re: Norfair Feedback Thread

Postby Morax » 20 Dec 2018, 17:45

That's fair, and certainly will take that to heart.

Thank you, Anihilnine.
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