Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby Exotic_Retard » 07 Jan 2018, 02:58

well the thing is, i know the response i should give is "bLaCkHeArT iS sO sTuPiD, I kNoW beTTeR" but that doesnt help anyone does it. and while guys like that are super cereal and totally bother looking at everything and give reasonable arguments and all that, there is actually a kernel of truth to any complaint, if what you make is utterly perfect, everyone has no choice but to accept it. EQ is (obviously) not that, and the best way to make something better is to gather feedback. on like the 2 times BH said something to me seriously, he has provided nice feedback, and as a result eq contains a couple of changes because of what BH said (!). He doesnt remotely give a shit but he does play well so theres something to how he things thats useful. The best people in anywhere are ones that listen to feedback, and i wont be an ass just cos someone is being an ass to me, it doesnt get what i want.

this is mostly not for bh, nothing i say will likely change his mind or suddenly reverse his opinion about the abomination that is eq, but someone else might see something here. at least, i had fun writing the above post :D
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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby Exotic_Retard » 07 Jan 2018, 03:08

dearest bh, i know you managed to crush someone 500 rating below you by dumping 2x the mass into land spam, and if you played seriously at all for 3 seconds it would have been total domination.

just 2 things to draw attention to:

1.the stun was clearly the deciding factor, as predicted right? everyone complained about that and even you in that game. its not what won you the game xD
2.if you dump 2x mass into labs in normal balance, i think you might have won as well if you played seriously, hard to believe i know, but there are myths of zlo doing that in ladder and winning. Still, in eq labs are stronger, IMAGINE how much better you would have been if you picked uef labs with more hp dps and all that instead of cybran. Thats an actual concern, i would like to see more abuse of labs like that, but again what won is the stats (or maybe the 2x spam?), not the stun, which everyone was frothing at the mouth from.


sorry im so cereal, obviously faf isnt the right place for retards like me, as you correctly stated i have either 30 iq or proper delusions if i didnt notice cybran lab stun being an issue in testing.
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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby JaggedAppliance » 07 Jan 2018, 15:21

Exotic_Retard wrote:ah yes, another EQ tourney and another set of complaints. sadly there was no massive issue last eq tourney so we cant keep up the tradition oh well.

so the most obvious thing is probably going to be the lab stun, best show in blackhearts expert commentary on his stream. truly a thrilling experience. do check it out.
Spoiler: show
so, specifically, the complaint is that stun on the labs is too strong. seems reasonable. So lets have a look at the game where BH abused this mechanic to get a brutal domination, despite not playing seriously at all.

sadly he plays only one game with lab spam so thats all we have from him on this topic but lets take a look at that one at least.

so watching the replay at minute 7, BHs base looks like this:
Image
meanwhile this is moraxes.
Image
i admit that im not an expert at playing the game, but i think that if one side has 11 factories for spam and the other has 4 (1 for each team is making engies)
then one player will have more spam. I will need to ask a few 2k players to check but thats just my humble opinion for now.

Next, we take a look at what the whole map looks like:
Image
appears to me that morax has a bit fewer land units there. Blackheart has 80 labs at this moment (2400 mass) while Morax has 16 tanks, 4 arty, and 5 scouts. (2000 mass worth of everything, of which 1200 is his land units)

Again, not an expert here but if you have 80vs20, that means its on average 4 labs vs 1 tank, and i think they might just be able to handle one.
for context, congreve and the mighty highlander have 32 and 39 land units, respectively. so you could say that the mighty highlander is trying hard to outspam congreve here; indeed, he is ahead on mass income, with 29 vs congreves 23. very formidable.

now, lets fast forward just 50 seconds in this action packed game to the following situation:
Image
here we see BH and highlander expertly outmaneuvering moraxes upgrading acu, defended by all of 10 tanks, and flanking the right flanking labs with 6 more.
while blackheart has 52 in the immediate vicinity, and exactly 50 more stuck behind his acu. presumably hes microing them to bump it towards morax faster. simply astounding gameplay.

of course lets not forget highlander whos moving in with 24 strikers of his own, in a perfect example of high level teamplay.

Now, lets just pause for a moment and consider the unthinkable - what if BHs 52 labs were tanks?
Of course he was clearly building them for the extreme speed and micro benefits, but if he spent that mass on tanks he would have 28 of them. Now again, not an expert here but i do believe that 28 + 25 tanks are able to kill an acu. I'll confirm this with the top winter duel players as soon as possible.

but of course building anything but labs here would have been a mistake, and BH always plays super seriously and never makes those. so the labs were clearly used to stun the enemy army (of 10 tanks) before it ever had a chance to respond!

now, just 25 seat shaking seconds later, at 8:15 in the replay, the results of this epic battle (still in progress!) are as follows:
Morax has taken heavy damage, having lost 8 tanks, but he has gained 18 kills in those short seconds, possibly due to the part where labs have 100 hp. cant confirm, will need to sandbox. Morax has also lost around 2000hp on his acu, leaving 8000 left
Blackheart has lost 40 of his 50 labs that were there at the time! How could this happen? well 18 were ravenously downed by morax himself, 20 were killed by his valiant land army, and the rest were utterly destroyed by moraxes hidden bombers, sharing 12 kills between them!

Note that Highlanders tanks are still alive and well, but congreve is moving in as well! how exciting!
shortly afterwards, the epic battle concludes, but BH DID manage to stun a couple of t1 tanks. No really, i checked! they were indeed stunned!

fast forwarding a little more, we come to this epic engagement, with morax still on 8k hp, this time with 62 kills and blackheart himself moving in bravely with some labs in tow! lets not forget the overall situation, both players have added 2 factories each to their land spamming, morax on now on 6, and BH on 13 (again not including the engy facs) also highlander expertly snipes moraxes bomber squad. important detail here.

by just before 10 minutes the epic finale is starting to brew, with both morax and BH on 6.5k hp and BH bringing in 34 more labs, having kept them safely stuck in his base for later.
Image
so to sum up the situation, morax has 8 tanks nearby, congreve helping out with 1 more and TWO arty, and BH has 35 labs, with highlander bringing in TWO tanks and THREE arty! Very intense! Both morax and congreve have a bomber each, and morax is bringing in a second. here, morax is deciding to run for the safety of his 4 mexes instead of trying to get to the beach.

mere moments later, we discover that morax is all alone, and facing BH + 17 labs, so while morax is shooting the labs, and gets his second vet, all of the mighty dps of BHs acu is crashing onto morax, his mexes seemingly reluctant to help! Likewise his bombers are focusing on the labs, and BHs acu is hardly recieving any damage!
Image
and it continues! morax and the bombers are focusing on the labs, while they and BHs acu are bringing down his hp!

and thats when morax hatches a genius plan and DISTRACTS BH with a PD! BH stops shooting at morax with 700 hp and focuses on the pd instead! the pd is finished and BHs labs have sadly been out of range most of the time, not to mention that the stuns dont work on the acu! must have been a misreading of the eq changelog, surely if BH had known this he would have attacked the acu earlier instead of the pd!
Image

At this point the game is in a solid draw territory, even now, both morax and BH choose to not attack the acus instead focusing on more labs, and the pd respectively.
congreve goes on to beat highlander against all odds. what a game, showcasing exactly how strong cybran lab stun is, were it not for that, things would have turned out entirely differently!

Liked for effort.
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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 07 Jan 2018, 17:30

Exotic_Retard wrote:ah yes, another EQ tourney and another set of complaints. sadly there was no massive issue last eq tourney so we cant keep up the tradition oh well.

so the most obvious thing is probably going to be the lab stun, best show in blackhearts expert commentary on his stream. truly a thrilling experience. do check it out.
Spoiler: show
so, specifically, the complaint is that stun on the labs is too strong. seems reasonable. So lets have a look at the game where BH abused this mechanic to get a brutal domination, despite not playing seriously at all.

sadly he plays only one game with lab spam so thats all we have from him on this topic but lets take a look at that one at least.

so watching the replay at minute 7, BHs base looks like this:
Image
meanwhile this is moraxes.
Image
i admit that im not an expert at playing the game, but i think that if one side has 11 factories for spam and the other has 4 (1 for each team is making engies)
then one player will have more spam. I will need to ask a few 2k players to check but thats just my humble opinion for now.

Next, we take a look at what the whole map looks like:
Image
appears to me that morax has a bit fewer land units there. Blackheart has 80 labs at this moment (2400 mass) while Morax has 16 tanks, 4 arty, and 5 scouts. (2000 mass worth of everything, of which 1200 is his land units)

Again, not an expert here but if you have 80vs20, that means its on average 4 labs vs 1 tank, and i think they might just be able to handle one.
for context, congreve and the mighty highlander have 32 and 39 land units, respectively. so you could say that the mighty highlander is trying hard to outspam congreve here; indeed, he is ahead on mass income, with 29 vs congreves 23. very formidable.

now, lets fast forward just 50 seconds in this action packed game to the following situation:
Image
here we see BH and highlander expertly outmaneuvering moraxes upgrading acu, defended by all of 10 tanks, and flanking the right flanking labs with 6 more.
while blackheart has 52 in the immediate vicinity, and exactly 50 more stuck behind his acu. presumably hes microing them to bump it towards morax faster. simply astounding gameplay.

of course lets not forget highlander whos moving in with 24 strikers of his own, in a perfect example of high level teamplay.

Now, lets just pause for a moment and consider the unthinkable - what if BHs 52 labs were tanks?
Of course he was clearly building them for the extreme speed and micro benefits, but if he spent that mass on tanks he would have 28 of them. Now again, not an expert here but i do believe that 28 + 25 tanks are able to kill an acu. I'll confirm this with the top winter duel players as soon as possible.

but of course building anything but labs here would have been a mistake, and BH always plays super seriously and never makes those. so the labs were clearly used to stun the enemy army (of 10 tanks) before it ever had a chance to respond!

now, just 25 seat shaking seconds later, at 8:15 in the replay, the results of this epic battle (still in progress!) are as follows:
Morax has taken heavy damage, having lost 8 tanks, but he has gained 18 kills in those short seconds, possibly due to the part where labs have 100 hp. cant confirm, will need to sandbox. Morax has also lost around 2000hp on his acu, leaving 8000 left
Blackheart has lost 40 of his 50 labs that were there at the time! How could this happen? well 18 were ravenously downed by morax himself, 20 were killed by his valiant land army, and the rest were utterly destroyed by moraxes hidden bombers, sharing 12 kills between them!

Note that Highlanders tanks are still alive and well, but congreve is moving in as well! how exciting!
shortly afterwards, the epic battle concludes, but BH DID manage to stun a couple of t1 tanks. No really, i checked! they were indeed stunned!

fast forwarding a little more, we come to this epic engagement, with morax still on 8k hp, this time with 62 kills and blackheart himself moving in bravely with some labs in tow! lets not forget the overall situation, both players have added 2 factories each to their land spamming, morax on now on 6, and BH on 13 (again not including the engy facs) also highlander expertly snipes moraxes bomber squad. important detail here.

by just before 10 minutes the epic finale is starting to brew, with both morax and BH on 6.5k hp and BH bringing in 34 more labs, having kept them safely stuck in his base for later.
Image
so to sum up the situation, morax has 8 tanks nearby, congreve helping out with 1 more and TWO arty, and BH has 35 labs, with highlander bringing in TWO tanks and THREE arty! Very intense! Both morax and congreve have a bomber each, and morax is bringing in a second. here, morax is deciding to run for the safety of his 4 mexes instead of trying to get to the beach.

mere moments later, we discover that morax is all alone, and facing BH + 17 labs, so while morax is shooting the labs, and gets his second vet, all of the mighty dps of BHs acu is crashing onto morax, his mexes seemingly reluctant to help! Likewise his bombers are focusing on the labs, and BHs acu is hardly recieving any damage!
Image
and it continues! morax and the bombers are focusing on the labs, while they and BHs acu are bringing down his hp!

and thats when morax hatches a genius plan and DISTRACTS BH with a PD! BH stops shooting at morax with 700 hp and focuses on the pd instead! the pd is finished and BHs labs have sadly been out of range most of the time, not to mention that the stuns dont work on the acu! must have been a misreading of the eq changelog, surely if BH had known this he would have attacked the acu earlier instead of the pd!
Image

At this point the game is in a solid draw territory, even now, both morax and BH choose to not attack the acus instead focusing on more labs, and the pd respectively.
congreve goes on to beat highlander against all odds. what a game, showcasing exactly how strong cybran lab stun is, were it not for that, things would have turned out entirely differently!



I hope we will have more cast and after game analisis as this. it was damn so exiting to read, even when i dont see a replay yet! :D
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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby Maldaris » 26 Aug 2018, 19:40

Just to broach a topic of discussion: Has tiericide/buff in TMD been considered? I've noticed that a combination of slow fire rate & a dumb AI have made TMD basically useless against any significant number of tac missiles (namely from UEF/similar Cruisers). In recent games among friends, three cruisers can overwhelm double or triple the TMD in short order. Cybran's instant-hit TMD make for significantly improved TMD effectiveness, but that doesn't translate at all into Aeon or UEF, with the Aeon notably having issues with TMD from units on lower terrain. The tac missile's arc upward is not steep enough to avoid hitting shields, and effectively reduces the kill rate of missiles by about 25%. Combine this with significant overkill with almost all TMD, where six or seven TMD in range may focus on one missile and be on cool down for the 7 or 8 behind it, and TMD spam becomes a viable tactic against all but the most aggressive strategies.

A couple fixes I've thought up would be to either:
A) Fix TMD AI so that groups of them don't overkill the same missile (probably impossible)
B) Reduce/Remove TMD cooldown, reduce accuracy to compensate, removing the plateau of effectiveness with TMD,
C) AoE TMD, making overkill work in your favor against volley TMD.
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Re: Not fixed in Equilibrium? Complain about it here!

Postby Exotic_Retard » 29 Aug 2018, 10:57

Hi,

TMD in EQ isnt changed that much, having been made a little more expensive, and some bugfixes, like preventing the groundfire tml abuse where you can snipe tmds with glorious uef tmls.

in normal faf however, mmls have enjoyed a significant buff which makes them stronger against tmd overall, while in eq that is toned down (since tmd is more expensive)

overall you could say that tmd is a little buffed in eq compared to normal faf.

the aeon tmd as always is special and unchanged aside from bugfixes. they need to be more spread out to work effectively but are better against massed missiles than other TMD, being able to do a lot more effective dps against things like cruisers since the uef ones have more than 1 hp per missile. they trade for this with their short range and hp, and as you mentioned being inconvenient to use around shields. putting them close to the edge of the dome does help however.

i would say in general that tmd is pretty effective overall, but it cannot win against units that are designed to counter it, merely delay the effect. the only real solution is to kill the offending units, but its already quite possible to delay the destruction of your base by several minutes with spaced tmd and layered shielding, im not sure its a huge problem in EQ.

a couple more notes about tmd:
-tmd doesnt miss. (barely) ever. when uef/sera tmd appear to miss it is because their target has been destroyed. iirc their projectiles even home on target like missiles.
-missiles have huge collision boxes to help out with the above, and so adding firing randomness to tmd is not going to work (i would say that firing randomness in general should be treated pretty carefully since it leads to inconsistent results)
-interestingly, changing the reload time of tmd would actually lead to a different dynamic of tml vs tmd since the 2 second reload time frontloads the damage. decreasing it would mean having to increase tmd range to prevent tmls from killing them.
-aoe has stacking behaviours which mean that in large numbers they are more effective, so it might become possible to create an impenetrable defense if this isnt done carefully. that doesnt make the idea invalid in principle though, just a concern to be taken into account.


fixing the ai is in theory possible but pretty difficult in practise, i think i will take a look at that, thanks for the suggestion! no promises though.

in my personal opinion, the biggest issues lie with static TML launchers than anything else, since they tend to swing in effectiveness from useless to crippling depending on the situation, while mmls cruisers and the like are in general a lot more consistent vs tmd and how much damage they can do.

overall, this mod is unofficial and so is by necessity fairly conservative in its changes. player acceptance has to be considered more here. while it would be interesting to re-do tmd and tmls so that they behave more consistently have a little less cheese to them and the like, i think we will be focusing on working with what were allowed to touch :>

thanks for your suggestions though, we will be taking a look at some of them to see what might be done to make things a little better!
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