T2 static arty cancer

Moderator: JaggedAppliance

T2 static arty cancer

Postby ZeRen » 13 Oct 2019, 10:28

what about put T2 static arty into Tech 3? why? I tell you

right now there is meta, front guy go into mid map and start build this cancer, that can shot cross like half map, really terrible in land warfare

When I was asking in FAF chat how to counter T2 static arty, I was told that T3 mobile arty not counter T2 static arty, and if I let other guy go in mid map build it I am noob...well....

I just watched Gyle's video ZLO (2189) vs Swkoll (1832) and imagine that, ZLO went in mid map and start build turtle with T2 static
arties and Swkoll lost the game....ladder game...hm..."T2 arty is too expensive" they say....hm... is it?? 50 mass/s was enought to ZLO (no offence to you)

please stop denying this, or other nonsence, this is problem that makes this game turtle fest and boring, in team games do this is even easier

so I am suggesting put the arty to tech 3 (ok ok I know it will never happen, people in FAF love turtling too much, but I can dream)

upgrade to T2 on ACU is fast, cheap, hard to scout, before you notice, he already has T2 PDs and before you have T2 land he might have first arty up and MML are useless, many times I tried counter it by T3 mobile arty, but they come up so late, it is very annoying to use them and the range difference is huge (compare to T2 PD vs MMM, or T3 PD vs T3 mArty)

on tech 3 would not change anything in fight T2 arty vs Fatboy and navy

to prove my point here is link to that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaK-nYnYlw
User avatar
ZeRen
Evaluator
 
Posts: 626
Joined: 03 Aug 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 153 times
Been liked: 46 times
FAF User Name: ZeRen

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby Brutus5000 » 13 Oct 2019, 10:41

I cannot agree. The video you linked is no proof, given the fact that ZLO had 50% more mass generated+reclaimed. That basically gave him a free fire-base without suffering anywhere else.

A T2 arty alone is fairly unprotected. So you need TMD, a few T2 PD + anti air + a shield. Also a single T2 arty is not really effective. So you need to build some more. In the end you have a pretty expensive firebase and - given equal mass on both side - your opponent should either have a nice pack of mobile tanks just walking around your firebase and attacking your main base or he upgraded his eco and with superior income can counter-spam with T2 arty.
The 9th Doctor wrote:You think it'll last forever, the people and cars and concrete. But it won't. One day it's all gone, even the sky.
Brutus5000
Site Admin
 
Posts: 270
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 23:32
Has liked: 27 times
Been liked: 239 times
FAF User Name: brutus5000

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby Farmsletje » 13 Oct 2019, 18:28

1 ladder game where t2 arty wins the game
999 ladder games where they don't

T2 aRtY Op PleASE nErF
FtXCommando wrote:
need to give him some time to blossom into an aids flower
Farmsletje
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 1015
Joined: 14 Sep 2016, 18:38
Has liked: 342 times
Been liked: 416 times
FAF User Name: Farmsletje

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby Quant » 13 Oct 2019, 22:10

I think that many teamgames are played on maps that are far too small for the playercount, and this makes static structures much better than they should be.

Statics trade mobility in exchange for very nice stats/mass. A lack of mobility doesn't matter when players are packed into a tiny map, so they supreme cost efficiency of statics ends up dominating.

This isn't a balance problems, this is a people-refuse-to-play-on-proper-map-sizes problem.
Quant
Crusader
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 23 Sep 2012, 17:27
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 8 times
FAF User Name: Quant

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby UnorthodoxBox » 14 Oct 2019, 06:39

Quant wrote:I think that many teamgames are played on maps that are far too small for the playercount, and this makes static structures much better than they should be.

Statics trade mobility in exchange for very nice stats/mass. A lack of mobility doesn't matter when players are packed into a tiny map, so they supreme cost efficiency of statics ends up dominating.

This isn't a balance problems, this is a people-refuse-to-play-on-proper-map-sizes problem.

Yea this is one of the biggest problems. Everywhere you want to send your units, there is an acu, and later in the game, if each person on a team makes 3 t2 pd in their respective area, that is basically the entire map covered in t2 pd. Increasing map size does alleviate the issue of a strong enemy presence being in every possible place to attack, but people do not want to play the big maps.

For the main post topic, t2 arty really is not that big of a deal. If they are building it at a stage when you cannot make lots of MMLs or a good amount of t3 arty, chances are they are building it on t2 mexes, which is basically ruining their income. For every arty they make, you can make 2 t2 mexes, or for every 2 arty they make, thats nearly a t3 mex you can make. Of course, if the arty can just kill the mexes you are making, then you probably should not even be in that situation in the first place. Just scout constantly, and as soon as you see the first t2 arty, save up some units, let them build a couple more arty, then attack, and most likely they wont be able to defend considering you have 8k mass in t2 units (that is like 40 pillars), and they have only 4 t2 arty to kill your mass amount of t2.
User avatar
UnorthodoxBox
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 152
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 01:51
Has liked: 104 times
Been liked: 47 times
FAF User Name: UnorthodoxBox

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby Farmsletje » 16 Oct 2019, 14:34

thats pretty untrue box. if you play correctly you can easily protect your t2 arties in teamgames. defenders advantage is just too big to make up for the arty cost disadvantage
FtXCommando wrote:
need to give him some time to blossom into an aids flower
Farmsletje
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 1015
Joined: 14 Sep 2016, 18:38
Has liked: 342 times
Been liked: 416 times
FAF User Name: Farmsletje

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby UnorthodoxBox » 17 Oct 2019, 08:24

I guess I don't play against t2 arty a lot, only from what I see in replays really. I still do not think it is that big of a deal for the amount the arty costs, though.
User avatar
UnorthodoxBox
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 152
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 01:51
Has liked: 104 times
Been liked: 47 times
FAF User Name: UnorthodoxBox

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby ZLO_RD » 17 Oct 2019, 09:33

t2 arty is pretty effective if it locks your opponent in his base on 4-5 mexes, or is in range of enemy HQ and t2 power.
if we talk about this game... i just could not think of any other good way of countering mongoose... xD, thought t3 land would be more dangerous to do, and also would need lots of buildpower
http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus
http://www.twitch.tv/zlo_rd
TA4Life: "At the very least we are not slaves to the UI"
User avatar
ZLO_RD
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 2178
Joined: 27 Oct 2011, 13:57
Location: Russia, Tula
Has liked: 290 times
Been liked: 368 times
FAF User Name: ZLO

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby ZeRen » 19 Oct 2019, 06:26

look like ZLO in only one who understand what I mean

the problem is that pretty much all maps played on FAF are turtle maps, with MEXes in main base and usually spread around map, and if you include T2 static arty all maps will turn into turtle fest

it work like this, player go in mid map, build T2 PDs, shield and start spaming static arties, while he protect his mid mexes, he all so shot your mexes, so he need to build arty, while you need to build shields and E to protect yours, anfd you easily can end up with only base mexes, while he has more mexes, so he still can eco

and now you have to dicide, will I eco only on base? will I build units to attack?

I did give you argument why would be good to put in Tech3, no one of you didn't give any argument why it would be bad, you just say it fine now

as I said FAF community love turtling too much
User avatar
ZeRen
Evaluator
 
Posts: 626
Joined: 03 Aug 2014, 08:22
Has liked: 153 times
Been liked: 46 times
FAF User Name: ZeRen

Re: T2 static arty cancer

Postby ThomasHiatt » 19 Oct 2019, 19:13

Team-games suck because of the way the game is designed. You cannot attack or raid anywhere effectively because there are ACUs everywhere to defend, and because you will leave reclaim for the enemy team and lose. Ecoing and defending is always the best strategy because there is no risk involved and you will always win every game due to the defender's advantage and reclaim. Also, if you fall behind in eco there is no way to ever catch up and you will only fall behind further and further as the game goes on, making it even more impossible for an attack to ever work. Even if you play on bigger maps then everything except for T3 air becomes irrelevant. The only team-games worth playing are the ones on navy maps or with small player counts. This cannot be fixed without significantly changing the way eco and reclaim works, maybe making reclaim only worth 50% of the unit cost rather than 81%, and making mass extractors in certain parts of the map produce more mass and cost more to build so there can be some back and forth swings that actually matter.

I do agree that T2 arty would be better suited to being a T3 unit. It is a counter for T3 mobile arty, sniper bots, and T4 units, but it is itself a T2 unit. That was my idea for nerfing it before the minimum range nerf and static shield nerfs were implemented so idk if it is still necessary since I don't play the game anymore.
ThomasHiatt
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 128
Joined: 02 Feb 2017, 00:24
Has liked: 73 times
Been liked: 74 times
FAF User Name: ThomasHiatt

Next

Return to Balance Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest