T1 subs

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Re: T1 subs

Postby Endranii » 22 Sep 2019, 18:04

Endranii wrote:
While on sea you have what to deal with subs? Your own subs?


Um yeah?

And where is a reasonable counter to this unit in t1? Like against PD, like against land units or air units? A one that is deployable on the sea without trouble? There is none on t1.And subs are not counter to subs, after all they are exactly the same unit.

You make it sound like getting a t2 air hq is some insane investment, when in fact it's not even a t2 mex, and you require one sooner or later anyway.

T2 air is still countered by T1 air unless we are speaking Aeon who can invest into Swifties, but even then they can be still dealt with t1 air.

No amount of micro is going to make a sub have more dps than a frig. I think you are getting the terms "dps" and "overall damage caused by the unit" mixed up.

Cybran sub sports 58dps, just a tad shy of a frigate.
Uef is 63dps which is around 13 more that it's own frigate.
Sera is 59 compared to 55 of it's frigates.

And if he's running away from you and microing then you can do the same with your subs and bank on the extra range. Otherwise you have the aforementioned evasion that comes with submerging them where they are pretty safe from all t1 threats apart from other subs or shallow waters.

Literally nobody asked for that?

The balance team as you can see is already trying to bank on the evasion route granting more survival by making the subs harder to find in early stages. While others here are asking for better body that can withstand more damage or just straight up damage buff or giving them higher range. Just scroll higher.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 22 Sep 2019, 18:35

Endranii wrote:And where is a reasonable counter to this unit in t1? Like against PD, like against land units or air units? A one that is deployable on the sea without trouble?


Not every unit needs a direct counter.

Endranii wrote:There is none on t1.And subs are not counter to subs, after all they are exactly the same unit.


Why not? In this case the counter at the t1 stage would be “more subs”. Even ignoring this fact, this doesn’t matter considering how good torps are.

Endranii wrote:T2 air is still countered by T1 air unless we are speaking Aeon who can invest into Swifties, but even then they can be still dealt with t1 air.


Yeah and? Do you not build your own t1 air? Do you stop building t1 air when you make torps?

Endranii wrote:Cybran sub sports 58dps, just a tad shy of a frigate.
Uef is 63dps which is around 13 more that it's own frigate.
Sera is 59 compared to 55 of it's frigates.


I don’t know which game you are playing, in the one I play people keep their subs submerged except when they want to kill engies or some other extremely minor stuff, so counting the deck gun into the total dps is just bullshit. Nobody fights frigs with non-submerged subs.

By that logic you can also count in the frig aa to the total frig dps. Doesn’t really make sense, does it?

Endranii wrote:And if he's running away from you and microing then you can do the same with your subs and bank on the extra range. Otherwise you have the aforementioned evasion that comes with submerging them where they are pretty safe from all t1 threats apart from other subs or shallow waters.


You do realize that you would need to babysit your sub constantly to do that because both units have the same speed? While the player with the frig can just place a move order at the back of the map, you will need to constantly micro your sub OR lock the frig. And as we have already established, locking the frig with the sub is a bad idea, as the sub will lose out on dps.

Endranii wrote:The balance team as you can see is already trying to bank on the evasion route granting more survival by making the subs harder to find in early stages. While others here are asking for better body that can withstand more damage or just straight up damage buff or giving them higher range. Just scroll higher.


You said:

By no means a unit having "evasion" like t1 subs should have good body AND dps.


Then you correct your false statement with:

“While others here are asking for better body that can withstand more damage OR just straight up damage buff OR giving them higher range.”


Maybe you should scroll higher and reread what you wrote yourself.

You saying, that people ask for both buffs at the same time is factually wrong, and you correcting yourself now just makes this pretty sad attempt even more laughable.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby Endranii » 22 Sep 2019, 20:04

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Endranii wrote:And where is a reasonable counter to this unit in t1? Like against PD, like against land units or air units? A one that is deployable on the sea without trouble?


Not every unit needs a direct counter.
Everything needs some kind of counter, never said it have to be DIRECT counter, soft counters are a thing.Honestly, if you think that answer to great t1 subs should be just subs then it's kinda pointless to discuss
Endranii wrote:There is none on t1.And subs are not counter to subs, after all they are exactly the same unit.


Why not? In this case the counter at the t1 stage would be “more subs”. Even ignoring this fact, this doesn’t matter considering how good torps are.
So basically you want is to have overpowered unit that can be just used without any repercusion on it's own tech level/field

Endranii wrote:T2 air is still countered by T1 air unless we are speaking Aeon who can invest into Swifties, but even then they can be still dealt with t1 air.


Yeah and? Do you not build your own t1 air? Do you stop building t1 air when you make torps?
No but it just shows that there is available counter on corresponding or lower tech level. Which is not really true for subs, apart from static defences or an EXACT SAME COPY OF UNIT

Endranii wrote:Cybran sub sports 58dps, just a tad shy of a frigate.
Uef is 63dps which is around 13 more that it's own frigate.
Sera is 59 compared to 55 of it's frigates.


I don’t know which game you are playing, in the one I play people keep their subs submerged except when they want to kill engies or some other extremely minor stuff, so counting the deck gun into the total dps is just bullshit. Nobody fights frigs with non-submerged subs.

By that logic you can also count in the frig aa to the total frig dps. Doesn’t really make sense, does it?

People were complaining that frigates are running back so they can't kill them fast enough, well guess what ofcourse they will run away as they have no way to combat subs, and the more you buff them the more ridiculous the sitation may become.They also complained that someone might micro a frigate to take short to no damage from subs, well you can also micro the subs the same way enemy is microing the frigates while running away.Hell you can even get better DPS if you are on it as you already outrange the frigates that are running away

Endranii wrote:And if he's running away from you and microing then you can do the same with your subs and bank on the extra range. Otherwise you have the aforementioned evasion that comes with submerging them where they are pretty safe from all t1 threats apart from other subs or shallow waters.


You do realize that you would need to babysit your sub constantly to do that because both units have the same speed? While the player with the frig can just place a move order at the back of the map, you will need to constantly micro your sub OR lock the frig. And as we have already established, locking the frig with the sub is a bad idea, as the sub will lose out on dps.
Imagine complaining about having to micro your shit when enemy is microing his... Imagine that you can also issue move order in the direction the frigates are running away so you can keep on chiping away at them, lol. It's exactly the same fucking shit as when you lock frigate onto other running frigate....for fucks sake it happens to literally every unit that shares the same speed and somehow you make it a problem for subs only... how delusioned are you

Endranii wrote:The balance team as you can see is already trying to bank on the evasion route granting more survival by making the subs harder to find in early stages. While others here are asking for better body that can withstand more damage or just straight up damage buff or giving them higher range. Just scroll higher.


You said:

By no means a unit having "evasion" like t1 subs should have good body AND dps.


Then you correct your false statement with:
Heh, you know that other party is strawmmaning when they literally can't find anything reasonable to pick on apart from a word that means nothing to the idea behind the sentence.
“While others here are asking for better body that can withstand more damage OR just straight up damage buff OR giving them higher range.”


Maybe you should scroll higher and reread what you wrote yourself.
Still doesn't matter as the point stands. A unit with strong EVASION SHOULD NOT HAVE A CAPABLE BODY/DPS/WHATEVER ABILITY compared to similar mass units which are way more vulnerable on it's tech level and operating theater

You saying, that people ask for both buffs at the same time is factually wrong, and you correcting yourself now just makes this pretty sad attempt even more laughable.
Doesn't matter, any of the buffs which are regarding DPS/BODY/Mass cost are dangerous for units with so much evasion on it's level.Even more as the evasion is soo good that it forces opponent to invest into higher tech if they want to reliably deal with it

Honestly I really don't see the point in discussion considering you don't understand why stuf that have evasion should never become too good, especially when it have no counters on it's tier.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 22 Sep 2019, 20:43

Endranii wrote:Everything needs some kind of counter, never said it have to be DIRECT counter, soft counters are a thing. Honestly, if you think that answer to great t1 subs should be just subs then it's kinda pointless to discuss


Who said I assumed t1 subs to be great? Are they great? Are we talking about great subs? No, we are not. As long as the unit itself isn’t super strong compared to other units, it not having another counter except itself is fine. Your point?

Endranii wrote:So basically, you want is to have overpowered unit that can be just used without any repercusion on it's own tech level/field


What??? Where are you getting this from?

Endranii wrote:on it's own tech level/field


Them being t1 and torp bombers t2 doesn’t matter. Have you looked at the price of a t2 air HQ?

Endranii wrote:No but it just shows that there is available counter on corresponding or lower tech level. Which is not really true for subs, apart from static defences or an EXACT SAME COPY OF UNIT


Who cares about what it shows? Subs are super expensive and basically t2 units price wise, and torps hard counter them. It doesn’t matter that there is nothing to counter them on t1 since torps are cheap and effective. How often do you need to hear that to understand it?

Your entire point relies on this whole “but dude they are t1 units and torps are t2 units” thing which just makes absolutely 0 sense because air HQs are so cheap and subs being more expensive than torp bombers.

Endranii wrote:People were complaining that frigates are running back so they can't kill them fast enough, well guess what ofcourse they will run away as they have no way to combat subs, and the more you buff them the more ridiculous the sitation may become.


This doesn’t have anything to do with what you quoted, nor is it relevant for the discussion.

Endranii wrote:They also complained that someone might micro a frigate to take short to no damage from subs, well you can also micro the subs the same way enemy is microing the frigates while running away.Hell you can even get better DPS if you are on it as you already outrange the frigates that are running away


Again, you are just completely dodging the argument.

To the latter part:
- Locking isn’t an option
- Running away from a sub with a frig is easier than trying to catch a frig with a sub

That’s all there is to it.

Endranii wrote:Imagine complaining about having to micro your shit when enemy is microing his...


Imagine, I never complained about having to micro anything?
Imagine, starting to make stuff up because one’s arguments don’t make sense…

Endranii wrote:Imagine that you can also issue move order in the direction the frigates are running away so you can keep on chiping away at them, lol.


Yeah and then? He just moves it somewhere else, and if you don’t respond right away you lose it? “lol”

Endranii wrote:It's exactly the same fucking shit as when you lock frigate onto other running frigate


Yeah, and it doesn’t matter for the frigate, because the frigate isn’t nearly affected as much as the sub.

Endranii wrote:....for fucks sake it happens to literally every unit that shares the same speed and somehow you make it a problem for subs only...


You do realize, that this is especially bad for subs, right?

Endranii wrote:how delusioned are you


I don’t know, how delusional are you? I mean it’s not like it takes 1 min of sandboxing, right?

Endranii wrote:Still doesn't matter as the point stands. A unit with strong EVASION SHOULD NOT HAVE A CAPABLE BODY/DPS/WHATEVER ABILITY compared to similar mass units which are way more vulnerable on it's tech level and operating theater


No, your point doesn’t stand, you are quite literally wrong about 90% of what you wrote. And now you are just caps spamming things which nobody disagrees with anyway.

Endranii wrote:Doesn't matter, any of the buffs which are regarding DPS/BODY/Mass cost are dangerous for units with so much evasion on it's level.


Yes, it does matter because you are making stuff up about things other people say and then try to argue about it. Thanks for admitting it at least, I guess?

Endranii wrote:Even more as the evasion is soo good that it forces opponent to invest into higher tech if they want to reliably deal with it


Jesus Christ, do you live in some dystopia where t2 air hqs are never built because they are too expensive and serve no purpose other than to make torps?

Endranii wrote:Honestly I really don't see the point in discussion considering you don't understand why stuf that have evasion should never become too good


Ah and now you want to leave the discussion because apparently I don’t get your 10000 IQ arguments HMMM

Endranii wrote:especially when it have no counters on it's tier.


Again, it doesn’t matter what tier subs are, since they are basically t2 units’ price wise and the t2 air HQ is so cheap. I mean I also told you that twice now and yet you keep repeating the same argument over and over. Maybe it’s you who doesn’t understand the point?
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Re: T1 subs

Postby Endranii » 22 Sep 2019, 21:01

Ehh.
T1 sub needs a direct hp, DPS and speed buff, not some cancer changes with frigate intel.

The problem of this unit is that it has no real role in this game.

They can't even deal with t1 frigates because of absurdly low 37.5 DPS and same speed so Frigate could infinitly run away.

Except it takes around a minute for 1 submarine to kill an idle Frigate

Maybe if subs had a longer range that made them able to micro and stay hidden easier

just making them cheaper, or giving them higher dps, or increasing their hp to survive one torp bomber pass.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 22 Sep 2019, 21:25

To the first one: Yes, I ignored that one because in EQ:

- The sub got and hp and damage buff (no speed buff so not all 3 things apply)
- They got a huge cost increase (it doesnt really matter that you buff the unit in)
- The sub still gets one shot by torps so the hp buff doesn’t really make a difference in the t1 stage

Therefore I interpret that said statement does not mean: "Buff subs in all aspects no matter what", which is what you are saying. I am sure it means: "buff subs in many aspects but also keep it balanced by increasing the cost (or other stuff)".

I was talking about all the mentioned changes together. I have said this about 10 times now, so I have no idea why you are quoting 5 quotes which don't even have anything to do with that.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby Farmsletje » 22 Sep 2019, 21:33

Apofenas wrote:Except it takes around a minute for 1 submarine to kill an idle Frigate. I remember ZLO had very old POV on Roanoke where he showed how to micro frigate around island or run away to the map corner so the sub would infinitly chase that Frigate because these 2 units have same speed and even if submarine somehow gets in range - it would stop and fire salvo while letting the Frigate get a distance again. That's quite the usefullness!

Roanoke is probably one of the worst maps for subs together with most other 20km maps so no surprise t1 subs can be easily outrun there. On most 10km maps this is often not the case.
Apofenas wrote:If you see Frigate is being shot by torpedoes you could just put torp bomber on assist order. Torp bomber has its own sonar with 45 radius - it will see and lock itself on that sub.
.
1.1k mass investment to counter a sub which can be quickly shot down by enemy inties and relies on you having air control. Ofcourse torp bombers are still amazing at killing subs and it's pretty much worth it making t2 air just to make 1 or 2 of them if the enemy is making subs, but if you have to assist order it on your frigs i believe the frig intel nerf already accomplished its task since it will be way easier to snack the torp bombers compared to usually.

Apofenas wrote:This again reminds on about Hawkey's naval rebalance proposal a few years ago and IceDreamer's research mod. All of those were aimed to remove sonar and water vision from majority of naval units to make subs more viable option and force you to build anti-sub units against them. T1 sub could be directly under destroyer and you wouldn't see them untill you got your own sub. How did that work? You took a couple subs in unit mix and than destroyers ate enemy sub spam. It took Ithilis 20-30 versions of EQ to realise that it's better to direct buff t1 sub instead of fcking around with units intel stats.

I don't know why you're bringing up destroyers but like i said previously subs are supposed to be early game units that fall off once t2 hits the field (just like how t2 land far outranks t1). Also i myself place zero trust in ithilis' EQ balance adventures.

Steel_Panther wrote:Subs are certainly more useful for maps with underwater mexes, but the problem is they are not even very good at the role of countering frigates defensively. The only time they can really be used for that is if they follow enemy frigates for a long time dealing damage before they even get to your factories. Otherwise frigates still just kill all your factories and/or engies before subs can kill them. Even with the sonar nerf it seems quite likely the subs will be spotted and able to be torped in this situation.

I just don't think the sonar issue will matter that much, because the damage potential of t1 subs is still so low. Maybe if subs had a longer range that made them able to micro and stay hidden easier, this sonar change would make more of a difference. Maybe 40 range instead of 32 would allow that. But maybe the best solution is just making them cheaper, or giving them higher dps, or increasing their hp to survive one torp bomber pass.

Most of the time you can easily have same frig count + a sub if you're playing defensive since travel time is a thing that exists. Sure you can have 3 vs 2 frigs instead which is better in straight up fight but a competent player would've disengaged before the fight even started. Meanwhile with the new sonar changes the frigs can only spot the subs once its already taking damage from it which means its almost guaranteed to do more damage. Maybe further buffs are needed yes, but for now this is what we got.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby advena » 24 Sep 2019, 20:41

On rights of suggestion:

Unstead of nerfng frigate sonar give subs free stationar&idle stealth like some scouts have.

As a counter give stationar torpedo launchers, T2/T3 subs and UEF torpedo boat bigger water vision.
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Re: T1 subs

Postby FunkOff » 07 Oct 2019, 23:23

The main problem with T1 subs is low dps. They can hardly kill anything even in groups. Second is cost, torp bombers one shot then despite being cheaper. Fix these problems and subs will be better. The sonar and water vision changes will probably help and be interesting but a dps buff to subs (maybe 50 percent?) will be required ti make them useful, and a cost nerf to torpedo bombers
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Re: T1 subs

Postby Little Miss Murder » 08 Oct 2019, 14:32

T1 subs exist as fodder for T2 destros - in other words they're a meatshield for soaking up torp damage that would otherwise be targeted at your own boats.
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