I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

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I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby Endranii » 17 Feb 2018, 21:30

Please buff shard Hp by 10. Ty very much.
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby moonbearonmeth » 18 Feb 2018, 04:35

gib replays plox
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby Elusive » 18 Feb 2018, 09:31

Woah there boy, lets not go crazy. A 9 hp buff would do the job fine.
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby speed2 » 18 Feb 2018, 10:41

Could we round the value to some pretty number please?
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby moonbearonmeth » 18 Feb 2018, 11:13

speed2 wrote:Could we round the value to some pretty number please?

Something like pi squared?
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby Endranii » 18 Feb 2018, 18:10

moonbearonmeth wrote:gib replays plox

Here is a replay - #7509372
shard without radar vs torp - 63 dmg done
shard vs torp - 133dmg done to bomber
Thuderhead vs torp - 140dmg done
housel smt smt vs torp - 154dmg done
Trident master race vs torp - 200dmg done

AA boat ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
moonbearonmeth wrote:
speed2 wrote:Could we round the value to some pretty number please?

Something like pi squared?


In that case a 7hp buff so we get close enough to the pi x 241 as possible.

As you can see I'm quite serious about buffing the shit aeon navy.
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Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

Postby Yolo- » 18 Feb 2018, 19:17

I think we should try Gala's idea how to change the aa boat:

V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.


V2: aeon t1 aa boat: build time 2400 -> 1600 (more in line with other t1 tech, makes it easier to rush if needed)
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby Yolo- » 18 Feb 2018, 23:44

Why can we not have more changes in the next patch? I really don't want to wait several months for some navy changes. At least make some aeon navy changes next patch, involving the Tempest, Omen and Shard. You don't even have to think a lot about it, just change some stats. I would like to play beta games and testing new t3 land, aeon navy, land and air T4 buildtime changes in lots of Setons games. But NOT naval T4 buildtime changes, those make 0 sense!

For the aeon navy changes I suggest:

Gala's idea for the Shard:
V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.


V2: aeon t1 aa boat: build time 2400 -> 1600 (more in line with other t1 tech, makes it easier to rush if needed)


Omen: Let's try a small range buff of 10, so the Omen has 110 range and has a better chance against any other Battleship.

Tempest: Maybe reduce mass cost by like 2k, so it costs 22k mass. Or maybe change it how Gala did it in his balance mod:
Tempest: elevation from -5 -> -5.8 (to avoid all battleship ground fire, highest possible before it can be ground fired, other tempest and ground fire strat still can however)

Currently Tempest is not a mass efficient unit, and this small change should give it much greater flexibility and durability in the t3 navy wars it is most often found in.


Also you can give some ideas to those 3 unit changes.

Please take those changes in the beta patch, and I will play beta games!
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby Apofenas » 19 Feb 2018, 07:05

Yolo- wrote:
For the aeon navy changes I suggest:

Gala's idea for the Shard:
V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.



Main problem of Shard is cost and torp bomber. You want cheap more accessable AA to cover frigates here and there all over the map to shoot down air which other frigates do on their own. The suggested change is a step in other direction.

Currently Shards are a bit bad against torp bombers because single torp can kill shard in single pass and repeat it 2 more times. If i'm not mistaken Shards survive mass sufficient amount of torps only after reaching 8 vs 4 number, but not sure about that. This means 1hp increace is actually a hard buff for Shard.

In suggested conept t2 torp will still kill 400 mass cost Shard for 2 pass instead of 2 separated Shards. It also makes Shard work like Cruiser with low HP and high DPS and I'm pretty sure we could do it a bit otherwise.

Remember old Cybran frigates? When you didn't bother to build Cruiser because you could get 9 frigates with half of Cruiser's DPS but with 5 times bigger HP which made such AA much less vulnerable to torp bombers.

I suggest 2 different ways:

1) Shard cost 120->80m, Bt 2400->1600: this will make Shard more accessable on t1 and more efficient vs torp bombers
2) HP 750->755;
When we had ZeP's ladder system I played more 1v1s on only Winter duel, than I play actual games in current trash they call ladder. Makes me so sad.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby Yolo- » 19 Feb 2018, 16:31

Apofenas wrote:Main problem of Shard is cost and torp bomber. You want cheap more accessable AA to cover frigates here and there all over the map to shoot down air which other frigates do on their own. The suggested change is a step in other direction.

Currently Shards are a bit bad against torp bombers because single torp can kill shard in single pass and repeat it 2 more times. If i'm not mistaken Shards survive mass sufficient amount of torps only after reaching 8 vs 4 number, but not sure about that. This means 1hp increace is actually a hard buff for Shard.

In suggested conept t2 torp will still kill 400 mass cost Shard for 2 pass instead of 2 separated Shards. It also makes Shard work like Cruiser with low HP and high DPS and I'm pretty sure we could do it a bit otherwise.

Remember old Cybran frigates? When you didn't bother to build Cruiser because you could get 9 frigates with half of Cruiser's DPS but with 5 times bigger HP which made such AA much less vulnerable to torp bombers.

I suggest 2 different ways:

1) Shard cost 120->80m, Bt 2400->1600: this will make Shard more accessable on t1 and more efficient vs torp bombers
2) HP 750->755;


Hello Apofenas, thank you for your reply.

After reading your post i went into sandbox and tested the shards vs equivalent mass cost torp bomber. The torp bombers even win in 5:10 ratio. But I have to say that the shards are already quite strong in big numbers.

You are completly right: A 1hp increase to their hp is an increadibly strong buff to Shards. Imo it makes them actually OP. Some random amount of Shards with 751+ hp would always win against a mass equivalent amount of torp bombers. To compare this with a cruiser: ~60% of mass equivalent torp bombers would win agaisnt a cruiser.
Another issue will be the late game. I can see how someone spams a lot of cheap op Shards like 50+ to deal with many torp bombers. The opponent actually would have to micro his torp bombers a lot so that only 2 torp bombers attack one shard, because if more attack one shard, you lose a lot of dps.
With this I come to the conclusion that buffing the hp is a terrible idea.

Your other suggestion sounds interesting, because 75% of its masscost would allow to spam more shards or give some shards the chance to be able to vet in the fight. In a normal engagement it would be very rare for a shard to vet, because you would have several shards and they gain vet based on the damage they do, so reaching 1vet level would be rather rare.
However I think that making Shards more spamable might be the wrong approach.

In the end I still think Gala's idea is the best, but lowering the mass cost of shards might be worth trying out.
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