PD/SAM Overkill issues.

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PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby uzurpator » 20 Dec 2017, 16:17

I'd like to raise an issue which bothered me since the original SupCom, but was made very apparent in FA and it's reliance on hordes of ASF. I don't know wether it is possible to do, but I'll mention it anyway.

Essentially, once a side gains air control with ASF, it is hard/impossible to the other side to regain it. This is because there is no ground based solution to counter ASF effectively. The reason seems to be fairly simple - Bunched SAMs tend to target a single plane out of a swarm of ASF, which leads to a massive overkill and most missles being essentially shot into nowhere.

This is also visible, but to a lesser extent, in ground based PD ( and just about everything, really ) - this is because ground based units are harder to bunch up and are slower, thus they remain longer in the killzone of the PD.

My suggestion - Introduce a firing mode, turned on by default on PD of any kind, to shoot at _random_ available targets of tech level equal or lower then the PD.
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby ZeRenCZ » 20 Dec 2017, 16:33

uzurpator wrote:I'd like to raise an issue which bothered me since the original SupCom, but was made very apparent in FA and it's reliance on hordes of ASF. I don't know wether it is possible to do, but I'll mention it anyway.

Essentially, once a side gains air control with ASF, it is hard/impossible to the other side to regain it. This is because there is no ground based solution to counter ASF effectively. The reason seems to be fairly simple - Bunched SAMs tend to target a single plane out of a swarm of ASF, which leads to a massive overkill and most missles being essentially shot into nowhere.

This is also visible, but to a lesser extent, in ground based PD ( and just about everything, really ) - this is because ground based units are harder to bunch up and are slower, thus they remain longer in the killzone of the PD.

My suggestion - Introduce a firing mode, turned on by default on PD of any kind, to shoot at _random_ available targets of tech level equal or lower then the PD.


well :D if you build SAM or TMD or PD in line you can expect they overkill ;)

just spread them out and you will see it is better

bigger problem is PD shooting at target out of fire sight (hill,...), while being killed something in fire sight
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby uzurpator » 20 Dec 2017, 16:49

I don't build PD, unless I need to fend off an XP going my way.

I am annoyed that PD is so easily overwhelmed when I need to crack a turtle at the other end of the map :)
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby Paradoxon » 20 Dec 2017, 17:24

Bunched SAMs tend to target a single plane out of a swarm of ASF, which leads to a massive overkill and most missles being essentially shot into nowhere.

The "Friend/Foe SAM" Mod helps out with that. Unfortunately it is part of the old/broken Total Veterancy V1.17.

Mod Description: "Anti Air Missiles search for new tragets after they lost their origin target or if the target has already a lot of incoming fire. If no enemy is in range they selfdestroy."
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby moonbearonmeth » 20 Dec 2017, 23:18

If only there were some kind of anti-air unit that had AoE capabilities of dealing with large amounts of air units.
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uzurpator wrote:I don't build PD, unless I need to fend off an XP going my way.

I am annoyed that PD is so easily overwhelmed when I need to crack a turtle at the other end of the map :)


Why are you building static defenses to counter someone with more static defenses?
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby uzurpator » 20 Dec 2017, 23:44

Snarky much :) I assume that you consider this to be "works as intented"?

How much flak do you need to counter 150 asf? I still remember the times of GPG when it was customary to build a horde of mobile flak to counter both Restorer spam and early ASF, however it was woefully ineffective against 150 of the things.

Anyhow - why would you think I build PD to counter PD? I am just annoyed that good deal of games hinge on getting the biggest/baddest swarm of ASF. But as I said before - this issue is a problem in many parts of the game, when PD is involved.
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby Farmsletje » 20 Dec 2017, 23:48

if it has the same functionality as acu targetting then they will target the unit which they can target the fastest. When an asf cloud flies over your sams the first unit they can target is the front plane so they all shoot that one. In the second volley they are all facing the same direction when you have your sams in a line, which gives them a higher chance to target the same plane. if you spread out your sams they will probably still all target the first plane in the first volley but they won't do it in the second volley.

Is what i'm guessing atleast.
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby moonbearonmeth » 21 Dec 2017, 01:39

uzurpator wrote:How much flak do you need to counter 150 asf?

Significant'y less than the cost of 150 asf especially given that when you are dealing with balls of asfs on that magnitude you have a 99.999% chance of hitting multiple asf with each shot and each flak is roughly equal in mass to an asf and a fraction of the energy and mobile flak costing even half as much as that.

uzurpator wrote:Anyhow - why would you think I build PD to counter PD?

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I honestly don't know.
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby uzurpator » 21 Dec 2017, 15:35

Significant'y less than the cost of 150 asf


How so? Flak overkills the same way as SAM does, as it follows the same AI. Except flak is easily avoided by ASF - gunships are another issue, obviously. It takes 12 seconds for a single flak to shoot down an ASF if all shots hit. Realistically, unassisted factory will produce a new ASF faster then flak can kill it.
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Re: PD/SAM Overkill issues.

Postby moonbearonmeth » 21 Dec 2017, 15:53

Words have never been my strong suit so here's a picture.

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