Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

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Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby Yolo- » 29 Nov 2017, 02:59

Yesterday in a game of setons i realised that the aeon t3 bs desperately needs a range buff. With a range of only 100(!) it is the worst battleship of all. It gets absolutly raped by UEF bs with 150 range, and it is not that great against sera or cybran either. I often hear that aeon battleship is more agile and has higher dps and therefore its short range is justified. But its agility and higher dps are not really useful in a normal game. Ofc a well microed aeon bs owns all other bs in some simple sandbox session. But the reality is different.
Aeon bs has 508 dps, the other three have 450dps. That is not much in a real game. Before you can even use that increased dps you have to come close enough to the enemy. Vs Uef bs, aeon can well be half dead when they reach firing range. So the increased dps is not really useful, if they die faster. Next point is the illusion of great agility.
I have made a simple demonstration picture why the Aeon bs is acutally not that great to micro:

range.png
range.png (24.15 KiB) Viewed 786 times


I am showcasing the perfect formation, a concave around the enemy, to effectively use all your bs and not clump them together. Ofc in real games the concave forms around an eellipsis, but this is a simple example.
As you can see in the picture, the space of effective microing, which is defined by the small black line and the range of each bs, is far smaller for Aeon bs than for Cybran or Sera bs. That means you have more bs in that small space that need to be microed in that space to still be able to fire at the enemy. With less space, it loses agility and can't move really well, it can be really easily blocked by other units, such as other bs or frigs. Sera and Cybran bs have much more space in comparision. And if you happen to just move out of that space as Aeon, which is hard to avoid with such low range, you lose time in which the aeon bs can fire at the enemy.
Therefore Aeon bs needs a range buff.

I have also attached some replays.
7115174-Yolo-.fafreplay
replay against Robogear UEF rock
(819.73 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
In the first one you can see me plaiyng against Robogear, and how i start to realise how shit Aeon bs are.
If you think Aeon bs range is fine, i have a second replay for you.
7116111-Yolo-.fafreplay
replay against Yudi Aeon rock
(194.11 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
In that one I simulate a late game strong eco naval battle with Yudi. He is Aeon Rock and spams BS, i am Uef beach and try to defend. As you will see in the replay, I actually win against Yudis superior eco and superior Battleship count. You will see that the Aeon bs range is the main reason why he lost.

And in case someone says that the shield boats are the problem and shield boats are invincible, i have also a strong eco late game naval battle replay featuring me as cybran Beach against Yudi UEF rock, and i win against him with superior micro.
Yudi is without question one of the best eco rock players, by far better than others close to 2k or maybe even 2k or higher. Considering all the active players, he is probably the best late game eco rock player.

I am not sure yet how to balance the range buff, but I want to hear and welcome suggestions from anyone.

Also you can still debate if shield boats are too strong or op. I am not really sure about that yet, so give me your thoughts and suggestions!
Last edited by Yolo- on 29 Nov 2017, 04:07, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Aeon T3 Battleship (Omen) needs a range buff to 128!

Postby Yolo- » 29 Nov 2017, 03:13

This is the replay with me cybran beach vs Yudi uef rock.
6936549-Yolo-.zip
replay agianst Yudi UEF rock
(889.02 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

Also i am aware, that i didn't play well against Robogear, but the replay should still demonstrate the problem of Aeon bs.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby moonbearonmeth » 29 Nov 2017, 04:20

Well after watching all the replays all I can really say is none of them showcase your point.

You argue that the Aeon battleship has too shorter range yet all these engagements happened within 100 range. You argue that the added agility isn't effective yet you never tried to micro the battleship engagements which is ironically what you claim won you the Cybran vs UEF engagement.

So with the point you're trying to make not present the only thing the first replays show is that shield boats are useful and the Aeon players probably should incorporate Shield Disruptors into their navy much like they incorporate mobile flak and mobile shield generators.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby Yolo- » 29 Nov 2017, 04:55

moonbearonmeth wrote:Well after watching all the replays all I can really say is none of them showcase your point.

all of them showcase my point...

moonbearonmeth wrote:You argue that the Aeon battleship has too shorter range yet all these engagements happened within 100 range. You argue that the added agility isn't effective yet you never tried to micro the battleship engagements which is ironically what you claim won you the Cybran vs UEF engagement.
Yes why do you think all these engagements happened within 100 range... Because the fucking Aeon Bs has only 100 range. And i tried several times to micro the bs in those battles, you have to actually look at the navy, you know? And ofc the fucking micro won me the cybran vs uef game, did you even watch it properly? I made far more movement orders for the bs then attack orders, i put them all in a concave with stealth, just like in the picture. They all have great agility there and i even managed to save some bs ... I won that fight, because my formation and micro was superior and because i engaged at a good time, when Yudi was careless. I got the reclaim field, but that didn't assure me victory, it only made things more even, i stell kept microing my bs the whole fight.

moonbearonmeth wrote:So with the point you're trying to make not present the only thing the first replays show is that shield boats are useful and the Aeon players probably should incorporate Shield Disruptors into their navy much like they incorporate mobile flak and mobile shield generators.
I never questioned shield boats in the fight against robo, but only the small space i had available to fight in. It is especially nasty, when you play against Uef, that you have to come so close, that even the BCs get in range to hit you. If i had more range in that fight, shield boats would have been less of a problem, ofc. And yes Shield Disruptors are great against Shields, but with only 75 range not insanely great. With only a bs range of 100 i won't be able to kill them.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby moonbearonmeth » 29 Nov 2017, 07:00

Yolo- wrote: you have to actually look at the navy, you know?

Just to be super duper sure I went back and watched the replay again. I even made an imgur album so we can watch it together :D
https://imgur.com/a/Yo0Dl

Yolo- wrote:And ofc the fucking micro won me the cybran vs uef game

Good, there where in agreement on this. If you would like to actually read my first post instead of getting in a tizzy I said was that you won the Cybran vs UEF battle with micro but when it came to Aeon vs UEF you did not micro and would've likely lost had it not been for external factors spite the Omen being more agile which you (rarely) took advantage of.


Yolo- wrote:I never questioned shield boats in the fight against robo, but only the small space i had available to fight in. It is especially nasty, when you play against Uef, that you have to come so close, that even the BCs get in range to hit you. If i had more range in that fight, shield boats would have been less of a problem, ofc. And yes Shield Disruptors are great against Shields, but with only 75 range not insanely great. With only a bs range of 100 i won't be able to kill them.

And this is where you're losing me a bit here. You have a short range battleship so you dictated the engagement into a short range engagement so his response is Neptunes. however Neptunes melt under Omen fire so this becomes a non-issue. So if the Neptunes don't work he builds Bulwarks which you can counter with Absolvers but you say you can't because they have too shorter range. But you dictated a short range engagement so then they should be effective.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby IceDreamer » 29 Nov 2017, 15:36

I've not had time to read all this in detail (I will), but I think I probably agree the Aeon BS needs a bit of a boost.

However... I find myself rather exasperated at the limited thinking displayed in the title. It's as though players just don't see, appreciate, or imagine faction diversity as a good thing. Surely the solution is just to make all the units the same, right? Perfect balance!

Let's look at the logic you've shown:
- Aeon BS is too weak
- Too weak because it can't get in range easily, and the DPS bonus isn't enough to make it worthwhile
- All others have more range! Unfair!!
????
- Must buff range

sigh

In my opinion, the absolute last thing this unit needs is more range! Go back to the logic, and you find other paths. So, the DPS isn't worth it huh? Well, how about we try buffing that, significantly if need be! Maybe it's hard to close because you're not that much faster or more agile? Well, we can buff that too, perhaps! There is also the ability to play with bulk, regen, cost... So many options.



What I am saying is, can we have a bit more variety in our thinking? Please...?
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby Yakmann » 29 Nov 2017, 16:35

The Omen is the fastest and most agile BS, according to the database. 3.6 vs 3 (Sera, Cybran) vs 2.5 (UEF).
Maybe it would be worthwile to look at the Tempest as well - I guess it's supposed to compensate for the low-range BS, but nobody seems to build it.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby ZLO_RD » 29 Nov 2017, 16:41

i have not read anything but please try to consider changing something that does not ruin faction divercity. also afaik aeon t2 navy is pretty strong. Is tempest still bad?
Edit: make it faster or just faster muzzle velocity
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby JoonasTo » 29 Nov 2017, 16:53

Can we turn this thread into a general aeon navy thread?

It's T1 is lackluster with:
- the worst sub with no deck gun(yeah it wins vs sera subs but what then? scare the enemy engineers to death?)
- bad frigate with no AA(but very situational range advantage on some maps and even more situational, but rather large advantage if fighting auroras)
- great AA boat(but it complicates the navy)
(- Aurora)

Best T2 with:
- Best destroyer in the game(with no AA again though)
- Great AA cruiser(but negligent surface damage, around one t1 frigate's worth)
- Decent T2 submarine
- Outstanding mobile shields
- Hover flak

Worst T3 stage with:
- Good BS(versus anything not a BS) that sucks vs other BS(less range means they lose kite wars, micro wars and when numbers get large)
- Expensive, overpriced but rushable(fast build time+no requirement for T3 naval HQ) Tempest(which is too large to be shielded by the hover shield)
- Decent aircraft carrier
(- Solace)

Because of this most aeon navy games tend to be massive T2 spam with shields or fast Tempest(or when somebody wants to counter frig spam or annoy the hell out of Sera players, T2 sub spam.) Anything else gives a large edge to the opponent.

This obviously means they start from behind, use the T2 phase to catching up and have that one window of opportunity in late T2 phase/Tempest rush to win. If they dont' do it, there's no coming back. It's a slow wait till defeat(or Paragon.)

Compared to others, this seems a bit "unfair".
Sera is bad T1, Good T2, Great T3, Load nukes to win.
Cybran is best T1, worst T2, Good T3, Spam harms with nano coms.
UEF is good T1, Good(but complicated) T2, Best T3, Unstoppable.


Now I'd like to have the mobile shield dome be just a tad larger to cover the Tempest from BS fire. That would already help, while not changing the strengths of the faction.

If we do want to change the BS itself however, (a little)cheaper, smaller(collision with projectiles as well as other units) and more agile BS would do wonders to strengthen the unit but would still mean aeon loses out in any lategame naval wars.


PS. Did we change the naval formations at some point? I find my navies significantly harder to micro than I remember from a year ago or so. It feels like before, I could micro 4(5) or so destroyers together without issues while I find myself having to separate them to groups of 2(3) while giving orders to make them do what I need them to do. They seem to sail closer together now.
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Re: Aeon T3 BS needs range buff to 128! + Shield boats op??

Postby Yolo- » 29 Nov 2017, 20:18

moonbearonmeth wrote: ... but when it came to Aeon vs UEF you did not micro and would've likely lost had it not been for external factors spite the Omen being more agile which you (rarely) took advantage of.

As i explained with the picture, you can't really take advantage of the omens agility. And I did try to micro them quite a lot. You can also see that in the replay, how i micro the bs and then get out of range, so Robo can happily continue firing at me, while i lose dps.

moonbearonmeth wrote: ... You have a short range battleship so you dictated the engagement into a short range engagement so his response is Neptunes. however Neptunes melt under Omen fire so this becomes a non-issue. So if the Neptunes don't work he builds Bulwarks which you can counter with Absolvers but you say you can't because they have too shorter range. But you dictated a short range engagement so then they should be effective.

This is just complete bullshit. I don't dictate the engagement into a short range engagement ... the 100 range force me to come into close range. And Neptunes certainly don't melt under Omen fire. Their main purpose is to kill destroyer and frigs, since the UEF bs is only usefull against other bs, but that doesn't mean that Neptunes are bad against other bs ... He can just retreat them and doom aeon bs even more.

IceDreamer wrote:I've not had time to read all this in detail (I will), but I think I probably agree the Aeon BS needs a bit of a boost.

However... I find myself rather exasperated at the limited thinking displayed in the title. It's as though players just don't see, appreciate, or imagine faction diversity as a good thing. Surely the solution is just to make all the units the same, right? Perfect balance!

Let's look at the logic you've shown:
- Aeon BS is too weak
- Too weak because it can't get in range easily, and the DPS bonus isn't enough to make it worthwhile
- All others have more range! Unfair!!
????
- Must buff range

sigh

In my opinion, the absolute last thing this unit needs is more range! Go back to the logic, and you find other paths. So, the DPS isn't worth it huh? Well, how about we try buffing that, significantly if need be! Maybe it's hard to close because you're not that much faster or more agile? Well, we can buff that too, perhaps! There is also the ability to play with bulk, regen, cost... So many options.

What I am saying is, can we have a bit more variety in our thinking? Please...?


Oh you certainly should be exasperated, but at your own limited thinking, that is. More variety in our thinking? Sure, how about you stop believing in your weird interpretation of faction diversity and face the fact, that this is making the game unbalanced and not fun, just like the retarded structure hp changes. This "faction diversity" has become some weird construction to justify retarded changes for the sole purpose of creating an illusion that justifies this game's diversity. However the game already is very diverse, it doesn't need this bullshit illusion. It's like this "faction diversity" was a thing that god decided himself and shall be never changed. So yeah, how about you start to get more variety in your thinking?

And how do you question my logic, when you don't follow any, but instead give retarded examples for weird buffs out of nowhere, that wouldn't even change the problem, which i have demonstrated in my replays and in the picture and its explanation. You also have to keep in mind to not make it too strong for t1 and t2 navy. It is already very strong against t1 and t2, because Omen has the best hitrate and highest dps of all bs. The current faction diversity makes the aeon bs without a doubt the worst and very weak, just to keep this retarded illusion alive. Oh, and Aeon already is different from other factions, it has a Tempest, it has a great T3 Missile Ship. Why can't there be just slight changes between the bs? Frigs don't differ too much from each other, so why can't bs. And don't start to argue what about UEF bs, with the shield boats and BCs UEF is a different case, so don't compare it.

Yakmann wrote:The Omen is the fastest and most agile BS, according to the database. 3.6 vs 3 (Sera, Cybran) vs 2.5 (UEF).
Maybe it would be worthwile to look at the Tempest as well - I guess it's supposed to compensate for the low-range BS, but nobody seems to build it.

Yes good point, I forgot to bring it up, but the Tempest needs a change aswell. It is just too inefficient to really use it effectively in a navy fight.
ZLO_RD wrote:i have not read anything but please try to consider changing something that does not ruin faction divercity. also afaik aeon t2 navy is pretty strong. Is tempest still bad?
Edit: make it faster or just faster muzzle velocity


Please try to consider having the courtesy to actually read my post first and to understand the problem with the Aeon bs, before you post this bullshit here.
Making Omen faster and give it faster muzzle velocity would be quite retarded, because it wouldn't help to solve the problem that i mentioned in my post at all.
Making Tempest faster and give it faster muzzle velocity could be an idea to help improving the Tempest, but it doesn't seem right for me to make those changes to the Tempest, and also it certainly wouldn't help with the aeon bs problem.

@JoonasTo thank you for your good points and suggestions. I'm not sure if this thread should be turned into an aeon navy thread, but if it helps to convince people that the aeon bs sucks, it's ok i guess.
JoonasTo wrote:If we do want to change the BS itself however, (a little)cheaper, smaller(collision with projectiles as well as other units) and more agile BS would do wonders to strengthen the unit but would still mean aeon loses out in any lategame naval wars.

It certainly would help the unit, but as you said, aeon will still lose in any lategame naval war, which shouldn't be the case if you consider that aeon should be a great naval faction with its many different naval units and ofc fair balance.



I am not sure why people are clinging so much on the thought of having a shitty low ranged aeon bs, when most of these people probably don't even play any late game naval battles at all.
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