Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby FtXCommando » 26 Oct 2017, 19:57

Petricpwnz wrote:

I haven't even looked in the direction of snipers yet. Calm your tits.

Disregarding titan brick is by far the worst t3 unit in current faf and also is far from the best in current alpha, and yes percival is still a lot better than brick, and no it's not "supposed" to be that way. DonT HaVE DIreCT fiRe T4 LanD doesn't directly correlate to percies having a necessity to be the braindead strongest t3 unit (which it still is).

Actually at the moment it's exactly the opposite, harb is pulled closer to how siege tank is and im considering options of moving it back without hindering the balance. You people want dynamic balance where some units can't win vs others unless have good unit mix but then we do that and we will get a billion balance forum threads saying how othuums suck. I'm a big fan of dynamic balance where all units are totally different and in different situations can come as completely OP or UP but faf game design and cancerous pathfinding simply don't allow for much variance. You are however free to suggest something exact.
F.I. in current faf othuum completely crushes close range but sucks total ass vs any kiting, but everyone just complains about the unit being shit even tho it's much more balanced than they think.

Who are "people" exactly? xD Well surely not me.

Not exactly, I will make a full vid explaining new roles and dynamic of each t3 unit once the patch is more refined and at least in beta preferably close to release. And yes snipers are fucked cause they weren't touched yet.

The patch direction isn't mine but I will carry it to be finished without massive cancer imbalances even if it means shifting the "feel" of some units slightly, if you want to have some unit role different you are free to suggest but please consider the effect the changes you propose will have on all other matchups and how it can (and probably will) ruin the balance.


Okay so a lot of this was mostly just me being salty at sniper bots being obscene. I’m glad they haven’t been looked at by you atm.

The advantage of percival I would assume is going to come from major parashield spam to counter bricks because of the nice hp for mass ratio they provide. Unit stat wise I wouldn’t really say they are far and ahead of brick so much as UEF is ahead of Cybran at t3 because of an inability for Cybran to counter parashields without tech trading. If I’m missing something feel free to explain it to me.

Look, I get that the balance forum is cancer and that every balance deals with new thread of bitching where 90% is trash complaints. I get that the siege tank/harb decision is the “easy” fix. My suggestion would be what I suggested prior. Cut the -300 constant e cost to -150 e cost or so for the t3 mobile shield which opens up significant options for phim t3 stage. I don’t think unit mix is that much of a problem for the shields as it would really just divide phim forces into shields + siege tanks, shields + sniper bots. Perhaps a slight speed buff for othuum so they could get into range effectively? I’m not sure on exact numbers because I don’t know what a .1 speed buff translates to.

The “people” would be the majority of people in threads complaining about titan. The “turn titan into loya” suggestion was always shot down in favor of making titan different in some way. I don’t really care that much about this because it’s nice that the titan might actually be made, but I figured it would have extra speed but less range than loya or something similar. This isn’t one of the issues in the game that I’ve been interested in thinking about so I can understand if the option you went with was the overall best option.

I do understand that it is an alpha. However, I figured posting now would be better than just waiting and hoping that (snipers) were just an epic prank.
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby TheKoopa » 26 Oct 2017, 20:16

Balance progression being the only part of FAF still effectively hidden from the community


*ahem*

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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby Petricpwnz » 26 Oct 2017, 20:59

FtXCommando wrote:Okay so a lot of this was mostly just me being salty at sniper bots being obscene. I’m glad they haven’t been looked at by you atm.

The advantage of percival I would assume is going to come from major parashield spam to counter bricks because of the nice hp for mass ratio they provide. Unit stat wise I wouldn’t really say they are far and ahead of brick so much as UEF is ahead of Cybran at t3 because of an inability for Cybran to counter parashields without tech trading. If I’m missing something feel free to explain it to me.

Look, I get that the balance forum is cancer and that every balance deals with new thread of bitching where 90% is trash complaints. I get that the siege tank/harb decision is the “easy” fix. My suggestion would be what I suggested prior. Cut the -300 constant e cost to -150 e cost or so for the t3 mobile shield which opens up significant options for phim t3 stage. I don’t think unit mix is that much of a problem for the shields as it would really just divide phim forces into shields + siege tanks, shields + sniper bots. Perhaps a slight speed buff for othuum so they could get into range effectively? I’m not sure on exact numbers because I don’t know what a .1 speed buff translates to.

The “people” would be the majority of people in threads complaining about titan. The “turn titan into loya” suggestion was always shot down in favor of making titan different in some way. I don’t really care that much about this because it’s nice that the titan might actually be made, but I figured it would have extra speed but less range than loya or something similar. This isn’t one of the issues in the game that I’ve been interested in thinking about so I can understand if the option you went with was the overall best option.

I do understand that it is an alpha. However, I figured posting now would be better than just waiting and hoping that (snipers) were just an epic prank.


Actually percies' advantage isn't from parashields at all (tho that's a thing too), its 100% in alpha strike and it's all about using it ("kiting" bricks). Due to fa pathfinding being c a n c e r you go and pick on bricks retreat and pick again and so on, dps tweaks were actually to make brick not suck total ass but only medium ass. In general it makes your unit use the deciding point, do you just run in without focus fire and lose or do you do some micro and win with epic result. Actually that's mostly the theme of all changes I've done as I will explain when beta is ready.

As for othuums i get what you mean but shield drain change will also change t3 shield spam for covering navy or t4 etc. Again, retaining land balanced but unintentionally changing something else. Frankly othuum itself isnt brought too much to be like harb, it's just made to suck as least as possible vs kiting units. Harb on the other hand got othuumized and I'm still thinking of ways to revert its more "speedy" role. That also will come with eventual shield reworks because frankly atm personal shields on harb/titan etc are only an e drain and don't do much, so that should add more variety to these units too.

Also huge thing about othuum-harb is that you kinda have to make them perform more or less even heads up, making it not like this will 100% guarantee explosion of hundreds of aeon assess when they lose unmicroed harbs to othuums.
Actually there is some decently big maneuverability rework idea I will try but I have a feeling it won't work. :D
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby JoonasTo » 26 Oct 2017, 23:25

If somebody could code it so personal shields won't restore if in combat, that would be a great start.
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby Farmsletje » 27 Oct 2017, 01:54

Great start towards playing bhedit
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby TheKoopa » 27 Oct 2017, 02:01

That's what most of these patches have been like
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby FtXCommando » 27 Oct 2017, 04:45

I'll just wait for beta before saying anything else, then.
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby Farmsletje » 06 Nov 2017, 20:33

What i'm scared about is that t3 units will be made too identical to eachother.

Disregarding the balance, almost all t3 units had a specific playstyle. Loya's early t3 raid unit but can be decent when mixed with bricks for a headsup fight. harbs fast speed and good vs t1/t2 and a good harassment unit, can win in small numbers vs stronger t3 units when microed. Percy bad vs t1 but good vs t2/t3 (especially in larger numbers). Very slow but very strong in headsup matches. Othuum wasn't very well balanced, but the idea was that it very strong once it got close (and you could use t3 shields to get that extra hp to get close theoretically), etc etc etc.

If i remember correctly (correct me if i'm wrong):

Harb speed got nerfed so it looks more like othuum speed.
Percy/brick speed got buffed so it looks more like othuum speed.
Harb firerate got nerfed so it looks more like percy firerate.
Othuum range got buffed so it has similar range as harbs.

I know that balancing is hard, but changing the playstyle of units drastically imo isn't the way to do it.

Fyi, some of the buffs/nerfs i can live with, but especially the harb nerf really triggers me. It feels like a complete different unit.
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby Mephi » 06 Nov 2017, 21:32

Farmsletje wrote:What i'm scared about is that t3 units will be made too identical to eachother.

Disregarding the balance, almost all t3 units had a specific playstyle. Loya's early t3 raid unit but can be decent when mixed with bricks for a headsup fight. harbs fast speed and good vs t1/t2 and a good harassment unit, can win in small numbers vs stronger t3 units when microed. Percy bad vs t1 but good vs t2/t3 (especially in larger numbers). Very slow but very strong in headsup matches. Othuum wasn't very well balanced, but the idea was that it very strong once it got close (and you could use t3 shields to get that extra hp to get close theoretically), etc etc etc.

If i remember correctly (correct me if i'm wrong):

Harb speed got nerfed so it looks more like othuum speed.
Percy/brick speed got buffed so it looks more like othuum speed.
Harb firerate got nerfed so it looks more like percy firerate.
Othuum range got buffed so it has similar range as harbs.

I know that balancing is hard, but changing the playstyle of units drastically imo isn't the way to do it.

Fyi, some of the buffs/nerfs i can live with, but especially the harb nerf really triggers me. It feels like a complete different unit.


Every nerf of a unit, which affects one of its strength, makes the unit more like all other units. Quite obvious.

Firerate
harb: 1->0.85
percy: 0.18

pretty equal right? 8-)

Some unit strength were cut down to balance them yes. Therefore other stats are more different, for example personal shields have an increased performance in current version. But no unit is completly different especially the harb, it is a bit slower and weaker, but arent we all tired of harbs raping everything? :mrgreen: The only unit for which that might be true is titan, because it actually can be used :lol:
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Re: Reasonable T3 Change Feedback

Postby Farmsletje » 06 Nov 2017, 22:19

Mephi wrote:Every nerf of a unit, which affects one of its strength, makes the unit more like all other units. Quite obvious.

Lol no

Sera t3: Buff t3 shield to make othuums more durable > doesn't make it like other units
Percy: slower RoF or slower walking speed > not like other units.

I was just saying some examples. I don't think all changes are bad, like i said in my post.

Nah, in teamgames harb rape doesn't exist :3
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