Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby IceDreamer » 07 Oct 2017, 14:45

JoonasTo wrote:Not so.

This is just the regular problem of ASF being ridiculously OP at killing stuff. So I wouldn't go trying to tank up air EXPs just yet. ;)


One way to tank up Exps IS to nerf ASF :) It should absolutely be on the options board.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby Mephi » 07 Oct 2017, 16:02

The problem of air exp is, that they are trash in some situations but also are op af in others. If there is significant amount of ASF on the field using them is very risky, otherwise if there only a few or none ASF on the field it is very hard to kill them. That problem existed also before the vet change, but it might be more severe now.

I will bring this to speech in the next balance team conference.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby Farmsletje » 07 Oct 2017, 20:01

Buffing air t4 AA will probably be a good way to partially solve it.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby JoonasTo » 07 Oct 2017, 22:46

Seeing as all T4 air options are anti-ground, I don't think there's anything positive to be gained from buffing their AA capabilities. This will simply make them even better vs low numbers of ASFs and not help them vs large numbers at all.

Doing the opposite and nerfing their AA while increasing hitpoints, would make them better when large numbers of ASF are on the field. That has negative effects of buffing them vs ground AA and making them much stronger on small maps, in relation to large ones. I don't think this is a beneficial outcome either as Czars are already retarted on 20km maps and amazing on relatively close 10km ones(though the shield bounce should have nerfed them a fair bit.)

So we want to buff Air EXPs in lategame when large numbers of ASF are present. The only two things I that help in that situation are health and speed.
We don't want to buff them vs ground AA or small numbers of ASF. That means we can't give them health, nor can we give them damage. Speed also buffs them vs ground AA in that they are easier to fly over protected area but as most ground AA is front-loaded, this effect is less than it looks. It doesn't affect their ability to take on an area protected by AA directly, which is most important to preserve.
The biggest problem with speed buff is that they become harder to scout and counter. Soulrippers go up with insane speed in the lategame and if we make them faster, they're going to be in the enemy base even sooner. This is not really preferable either but I feel this is the least destructive option.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby Feather » 07 Oct 2017, 23:29

Except you get way more vet when you kill 4x t3 mex clusters with awassha now. If you made awassha just to kill engies then you have no idea what you are doing in the first place -- especially when good players will see you dropping engies and control k them.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby PhilipJFry » 08 Oct 2017, 09:03

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:I would like to point out that the air experimentals are now quite fragile since you can't "farm vet on t1 engies." Just had a game where it took 3 bombs to vet once, after killing many t3 engies, two nuke defense, shields, etc. Lost the bomber because could not gain HP.


can you please provide a replay id?
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby 5cript » 14 Oct 2017, 06:40

Concerning Air EXP Vet (this is what BRNK meant): (youtube video ID, since I am not allowed to post links yet; SiJZWXau4HQ 52:30+)

1) you expect an ahwassa to kill at least 24k mass to vet once? Not even an ML kill would vet it.
On the other hand t3 mex clumps vet it "fast". Units not at all.

2) Also I am concerned with Air/Anti Air Vet balance. Air is "low" mass and high energy cost, but vet only takes mass into account. I dont know if thats fair for all combinations.

3) T1 should be childs play for a T4, but my ML was recently almost killed by a swarm of t1 mantis... this feels ridiculous.
EDIT: T1 Arty might even be a perfect counter, or LABs for that matter.

4) The veterancy change buffed t1 mobile anti air once again.

I am sure I will find more to lament about the mass based vet system. I think it is unbalanceable because of all the possible unit kill combinations.
The change affects TOOOO much. I have never thought about vet much, but this change suddenly shows me the importance and impact of the system.

I have never been concerned about changes in a similar fashion. This change rings huge red alarms above my head almost wanting a fork of last balance.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby Endranii » 14 Oct 2017, 12:13

Ad.1 - Cuz' killin' bunch of t1 engies is more important than going after mexes? Is that what you want to say? Reward killing "useless" stuff instead of the important one? And honestly I never saw ahwassa made to kill units, it was always more of eco/base wrecking tool or Sera Mercy.

Ad.2 State your point by pointing out the examples? Cuz' at the moment it seem's okay? 2 asf kills for single asf to vet, 2 t2 gunship kills for flak to vet? 4 engie kills for vet on t1 bomber? Seems fine to me.

Ad.3 Hmph, just so you know 19k worth of mantis is 10.2k dps and 100k hp of pure Cybran bullshit compared to your 45k hp 4.5k dps from ML. And isn't it obvious that Experimentals are worse mass to mass than their smaller tech? You make them to save time not to be better than other mass produced stuff.

Ad.4 They are supposed to counter bombers so that's what they do? And this can be tweaked by the balance team without problems, or actually it was already said that the mass needed to vet will be tweaked more?

Imo this is way more balanced than it was, saying that t3 scout was worth as much as BS is what epitome of unbalanced vet system is. And yeah we could probably stay on the "digits" system and tweak it but then I bet we would see complaints why does it take now 500 t1 units to vet megalith? Or why does brick gives more points than Harb? Also finally going after base is more important than killing t1 engies around to gain vet.

You never thought about vetting system before? Well just proves that it was in sad state that ppl didn't care about it or even noticed it. Now you will have smt to actually think about when you want to vet your acu other than just, oh here is unit let's OC it for vet and gg.
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby 5cript » 14 Oct 2017, 15:20

Hmph, just so you know 19k worth of mantis is 10.2k dps and 100k hp of pure Cybran bullshit compared to your 45k hp 4.5k dps from ML. And isn't it obvious that Experimentals are worse mass to mass than their smaller tech? You make them to save time not to be better than other mass produced stuff.

So the game should be all T1? Nothing else? Every Tech Jump crushes prior tech level, but suddenly you can invest "tiny" mass to kill a T4? Zthuee Spam ftw.
This is very wrong.

Cuz' killin' bunch of t1 engies is more important than going after mexes?

No, but the Soul Ripper will never ever vet again. Enough Said. Is this the right thing?

Ad. 4 They are supposed to counter bombers so that's what they do?

They are suprisingly strong against T2 bombers as well.

You never thought about vetting system before?
There were only three things to keep in mind:
Dont run T1 into T4, ACU veterancy and maybe that you dont vet the cruiser by torpedo bomber streaming.

Now you will have smt to actually think about when you want to vet your acu other than just, oh here is unit let's OC it for vet and gg.

No I think you cannot do anything like this anymore. You cannot predict how much you vet anymore. I dont argue for or against this. Might even be a good thing, but probably not.

it but then I bet we would see complaints why does it take now 500 t1 units to vet megalith? Or why does brick gives more points than Harb? Also finally going after base is more important than killing t1 engies around to gain vet.
Lol this is what the mass vet change does... XD

The problem was vetting T4 off of T1. This was the only problem with veterancy, but you think the right approach was to change every single unit in the game and all interactions, just to fix this one problem? The idea sounds good at first, but crushes predictability and has absolutely infinite unforseeable consequences. It does not just touch one thing but the balance of eeeevveeerryyytthhiiinngg
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Re: Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

Postby TheKoopa » 14 Oct 2017, 17:22

Plz link replay of monkey losing to mantis so we can laugh
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