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Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 04:19
by EvanGalea
Just my opinion but we can't really compare t2-t3 mass fabs like we do t2-t3 power generators. We get t2 gens first because we need them to reach the more efficient t3 power. But mass fabs are only really useful after you've fully upgraded/capped mexes and gotten a bunch of other stuff, including t3. So unlike power generators, you essentially gain access to both t2 and t3 fabs at the same time.

Edit: also I suggested buffing Notha bomb damage to 1250 as well here.
http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=14594

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 05:18
by TheKoopa
Farmsletje wrote:
CrazedChariot wrote:In terms of aeon vs uef. Don't obsidians already beat pillars? I tested 14 vs 8 (roughly same mass) and the obsidians won the few times i did it. I didnt fool around with kiting, but given a mixed army of obsidian, aurora, and perhaps shields, it doesnt seem like aeon is at a major disadvantage in t2. Aeon also have a super strong acu in t2 with gun range and shield.

In general, I would propose that people rush to t3 because harbs are absolutely deadly, not because aeon t2 is weak. Its similar for cybran. They have a solid t2, but their t3 is deadly. Uef t2 is fine, I think the reason you see it alot more is actually due to the fact that uef can't really rush t3, as they dont have a unit that can easily kill massive t1 spam. In general the issue is less faction specific, and more the overall balance between t2 and t3.


Yes obsidians win vs pillars in a mass to mass ratio. The problem though, is that they have a lot of weaknesses. Meet a gun acu and OC will wreck your day because it's much better versus high mass units. Meet a mixed UEF army containing pillars lobo's and parashields, with also more mobility.

Although i do partially agree with you, but it's very tricky to balance.


I find that opsidians are actually better vs acus, some simple splitting and you'll only be killing 1 per 4 sec, which is not nearly enough if you have say 8 or 9 headed towards you (in an opsidians vs acu only situation) as they deal a TON of damage in high alpha strikes that are hard to dodge

In an acu+tanks battle any range disadvantage is offset by aeon gun, and in fact I would say the aeon range gun comm combined with opsidians is far superior to any other combination, as you can pick off units from far away and if anything gets close it gets shredded

Opsidian was never a weak unit, quite the opposite, it's a very strong unit. It's just overshadowed by the harbinger which is obviously a 10x better unit. No changes are needed to the opsidian, something else can be said about t3 balance though

(Also ironically opsidians are the only t2 unit which can reliably somewhat deal with loyalists)

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 12:18
by rxnnxs
My you excuse my question, but who is the new Balance Councillor?

I mean there is an "Updates List of Casters", it would be useful to have an "Opdated list of Concillors" right beneath that

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 14:11
by Yakmann
JaggedAppliance took over after Zock.

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 14:12
by PhilipJFry

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 16:07
by Farmsletje
TheKoopa wrote:I find that opsidians are actually better vs acus, some simple splitting and you'll only be killing 1 per 4 sec, which is not nearly enough if you have say 8 or 9 headed towards you (in an opsidians vs acu only situation) as they deal a TON of damage in high alpha strikes that are hard to dodge

In an acu+tanks battle any range disadvantage is offset by aeon gun, and in fact I would say the aeon range gun comm combined with opsidians is far superior to any other combination, as you can pick off units from far away and if anything gets close it gets shredded

Opsidian was never a weak unit, quite the opposite, it's a very strong unit. It's just overshadowed by the harbinger which is obviously a 10x better unit. No changes are needed to the opsidian, something else can be said about t3 balance though

(Also ironically opsidians are the only t2 unit which can reliably somewhat deal with loyalists)

I'm not sure about that, although it's kinda hard to argue since the last time i fought vs obsidians was, well... never.
I think you're looking at the numbers the wrong way. First of all you can expect there to be a gun acu when you have 8 obsidians closing in, second of all you can expect kiting. Compared to pillars obsidians are way worse at killing acu's. Less speed to catch up, less range, higher mass density which means OC would do way more dmg then to pillars.
in a
Also, the splitting isn't really worth mentioning since it's something that every faction can do. Splitted pillars vs splitted obsidians, obsidians still perform bad vs acu's. I'm not sure about 1v1 games, but in teamgames obsidians are a no go because you have gun acu's everywhere that could destroy them. I guess in 1v1 games harbs are even better so that's why you don't see any obsidians?

TheKoopa wrote:In an acu+tanks battle any range disadvantage is offset by aeon gun, and in fact I would say the aeon range gun comm combined with opsidians is far superior to any other combination, as you can pick off units from far away and if anything gets close it gets shredded

Can't you basically say the exact same about pillars + guncom mix, but more effective because their OC would kill 360 mass obsidians and your OC would kill 200 mass pillars?

Yolo- wrote:Putting t1 torp defs behind facs gives them nice durability, ofc they are not op, but it makes them better and more useful. And frigs kill everything in a mass to mass ratio. I don't get your obvious reasons so maybe you could explain them to me?

Static defense needs a big pro because it has a big con: It can't move. You give up mass to defend a portion of the map, but if mobile units could kill it at an equal mass value there would be no point in building it at all.

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 16:17
by TheKoopa
Farmsletje wrote:
TheKoopa wrote:I find that opsidians are actually better vs acus, some simple splitting and you'll only be killing 1 per 4 sec, which is not nearly enough if you have say 8 or 9 headed towards you (in an opsidians vs acu only situation) as they deal a TON of damage in high alpha strikes that are hard to dodge

In an acu+tanks battle any range disadvantage is offset by aeon gun, and in fact I would say the aeon range gun comm combined with opsidians is far superior to any other combination, as you can pick off units from far away and if anything gets close it gets shredded

Opsidian was never a weak unit, quite the opposite, it's a very strong unit. It's just overshadowed by the harbinger which is obviously a 10x better unit. No changes are needed to the opsidian, something else can be said about t3 balance though

(Also ironically opsidians are the only t2 unit which can reliably somewhat deal with loyalists)

I'm not sure about that, although it's kinda hard to argue since the last time i fought vs obsidians was, well... never.
I think you're looking at the numbers the wrong way. First of all you can expect there to be a gun acu when you have 8 obsidians closing in, second of all you can expect kiting. Compared to pillars obsidians are way worse at killing acu's. Less speed to catch up, less range, higher mass density which means OC would do way more dmg then to pillars.
in a
Also, the splitting isn't really worth mentioning since it's something that every faction can do. Splitted pillars vs splitted obsidians, obsidians still perform bad vs acu's. I'm not sure about 1v1 games, but in teamgames obsidians are a no go because you have gun acu's everywhere that could destroy them. I guess in 1v1 games harbs are even better so that's why you don't see any obsidians?

TheKoopa wrote:In an acu+tanks battle any range disadvantage is offset by aeon gun, and in fact I would say the aeon range gun comm combined with opsidians is far superior to any other combination, as you can pick off units from far away and if anything gets close it gets shredded

Can't you basically say the exact same about pillars + guncom mix, but more effective because their OC would kill 360 mass obsidians and your OC would kill 200 mass pillars?

Yolo- wrote:Putting t1 torp defs behind facs gives them nice durability, ofc they are not op, but it makes them better and more useful. And frigs kill everything in a mass to mass ratio. I don't get your obvious reasons so maybe you could explain them to me?

Static defense needs a big pro because it has a big con: It can't move. You give up mass to defend a portion of the map, but if mobile units could kill it at an equal mass value there would be no point in building it at all.


Except that aeon gun com can shoot when uef can't, forcing the uef player to get closer where the opsidians is right at home. Generally these battles are about who runs out of units faster and honestly it's hard to decide who would win, but I'd give strong possibility to the aeon combo

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 16:27
by Yakmann
I think discussions about T2 land units are more or less pointless until we get a statement about the current state of the T3-Rebalance-Patch. Because, if T3 units get changed in one of the next patches, that'll be enough to worry and discuss about. And it will give a whole new context for the discussions about T2 land.

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 16:28
by Myxir
TheKoopa wrote:Except that aeon gun com can shoot when uef can't, forcing the uef player to get closer where the opsidians is right at home. Generally these battles are about who runs out of units faster and honestly it's hard to decide who would win, but I'd give strong possibility to the aeon combo

that confuses me. uef gun should outrange obsidians by roughly 50% of obsidian range. if the uef acu runs after the aeon, either the obsidians have to run away aswell (no need to even have them) or they intercept the uef acu and get OCd (in which case they provide free vet opportunity to the uef player, since he can't attack the aeon acu anyway).
if both players can freely choose whether to attack units (e.g. obsidians or pillars) or the acu, i'd rather feed on obsidians, since each OC kills more mass compared to pillars.
how are obsidians superior in any scenario that involves acus with gun upgrade or OC?

Re: Balance suggestions

PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 16:28
by Farmsletje
So the uef guncom should get a little bit closer while getting tickled by aeon guncom <3

But really, if this strategy is really as good as you say it is, why arent people using it? And don't tell me it's because harb rush is good because harb rush isn't actually that good in teamgames (take wonder for example).