3674 hp changes feedback thread

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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby PhilipJFry » 14 Feb 2017, 23:10

@morax Don't quote me on this but iirc the reasoning behind giving more hp to uef and less to cybran was because of how well they perform in ladder especially on a higher level.
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Morax » 15 Feb 2017, 01:37

The reply is greatly appreciated, Philip. I can see it helping with that in my head but I'm not a fan of HP alterations for equal economical cost.

I'll give it some time I suppose.
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby IceDreamer » 15 Feb 2017, 02:43

Overall I know that Zock always tried to look beyond the obvious surface at the big picture. He never balanced unit A against unit B because they don't exist in a vacuum, instead looking at how a change to A or B would affect the entire game (Or trying to). He tried to balance the factions as a whole against one another.

So the rationale was that with Cybran having been both objectively better overall and more popular with players, you can buff UEF (Weakest) and nerf Cybran across the board for the same prices, because the Cybran HP deficiency is made up for... Elsewhere...

That's the theory... I think?
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Morax » 15 Feb 2017, 03:06

First, no way UEF is the weakest, as that would be seraphim. I play them as a challenge because it's fun for me, but because I think they're the best.

I just seriously do not get why people task themselves with that kind of complexity....

These HP changes certainly do what they're intended to, but this is the first time the game has ever seen economical structure diversity...
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby IceDreamer » 15 Feb 2017, 03:39

FYI there's objective data saying that until very recent changes, UEF was weakest.
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Lich King » 15 Feb 2017, 04:16

"Avoid enemy strength and attack his weakness instead" - Sun Tzu, "Art of War"
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Morax » 15 Feb 2017, 04:45

IceDreamer wrote:FYI there's objective data saying that until very recent changes, UEF was weakest.


Oh bullshit. Why do you think that is? What the hell kind of data are you collecting that could possibly coincide this?
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Lich King » 15 Feb 2017, 05:21

Seraphim are the underpowered faction here. Until Zock and the team started to fiddle with HQ costs and HPs in August, all factions were balanced. There were only minor fixes needed - Janus, Ahwassa, possibly bomber (it's a pretty big change so if you want to shake up balance that's sufficient). But no, they've had this... "genius" idea of "faction diversity" where factions have induced differences in areas where all should be equal.
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Nepty » 15 Feb 2017, 06:29

IceDreamer wrote:FYI there's objective data saying that until very recent changes, UEF was weakest.

Absolutely correct. It was getting to the point where I was forced to use Aeon in ladder, or struggle to win. Shame it took years for people notice how weak UEF was when compared to the other factions. Statistics don't lie thankfully.

As for the HP changes to Cybran, it's a bit much for a Tech 2 HQ to get sniped by one tactical missile. 6001 HP sounds nice just to annoy players...

Eco building diversity? These probably won't be implemented, but like to share ideas:
UEF can keep the extra HP.

Cybran should be granted natural stealth to radar mexes and mass storages. ( they use no extra power )

Aeon mexes can have more sight range as someone else stated. ( Mex optical camera )

Seraphim... Uhh, can install a tech 1 radar on their mex? ( Mexdar. Radar on Mex upgrade cost twice as much as a tech 1 radar)

Anyway, have some faith. The game will get balanced eventually. Remember Cybran is the sneaky stealth faction. They depend on hiding so, their buildings are weak. It would make more sense if they could actually cloak buildings. (Cloak that can be detected by normal radar, but can be dangerous if used in combination with a stealth generator.)

One big cluster****, but let's not go running back to 3599... :lol:
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Re: 3674 hp changes feedback thread

Postby Ars Nova » 16 Feb 2017, 02:31

Fluidity is a Tactical Advantage

It's been noted that Cybran is one of the most popular factions as well as one of the most dominant. Why? The basics of warfare teach us that the most deadly army is a versatile one, and among all four factions, Cybran is easily the most flexible. Stealth creates tactical advantages, their missiles split, they're fast, and in the past having the most affordable experimental meant access to the earliest siege-breaker.

People often complain that Cybran is “too good”, but they don't want to abandon the advantages that make Cybran fluid because they're arguably what makes the faction fun to play as. Making Cybran less fluid will make them cumulatively weaker – this kind of advantage is very difficult to calibrate perfectly, and it shouldn't be fooled with unless you understand why and how it's important.

Conversely, UEF are weakest because they focus on defense, which makes them slower and less responsive.

“Balance” is not Balance

There's a difference between tweaking the balance of a game versus tweaking the skill floors required to play any given faction. If balance teams were to, hypothetically, reduce Cybran building HP by 50% in an effort to make them lose more often, the game wouldn't become more balanced as a result of Cybran losing more. The game becomes “balanced” to where players at a lower skill level cannot play as that faction well.

When a faction enjoys a great deal of tactical fluidity, described above, they have a higher skill ceiling. The most fluid faction will then have the highest skill ceiling and will enjoy the most benefit from practice and ability. Handicapping a faction to bring it into “balance” does not actually make all factions play equally at all, and it isn't much fun. “Balance” is nothing more than a data point in this case.

When You Lose the Entry Level, You Lose Everyone

FA is already a game with a steep learning curve. It won't be assisted by making the curve even steeper for somebody's favorite faction. It also won't lead inferior players to perceive your mod as balanced. If somebody logs in and sees that their faction has half as much health as it used to, they'll likely be angry and won't want to play anymore. You can tell them to play better, but they won't - some people can't because they can't put in the consistent practice. They'll leave because you guys are mismanaging your mod.

Balance for Everyone

I encourage you to consider revising your approach to balance to be less aimless. The point of game balance shouldn't be to achieve a statistical data point, it should be to give all four factions equal ability at the broadest variety of skill levels. FAF was already very, very close to balanced across the board. You shouldn't be changing random things to inhibit high-level players from overusing a faction with a broad-scale tactical advantage.

In short, don't try to come up with huge changes to make a faction worse overall. FAF was so close to balanced that “It'll get balanced eventually” shouldn't even be a promise you're making. Why did you ruin the balance in the first place? You don't have to do all this. Personally, it feels like you're only making big changes because you're bored with the game.
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