Equilibrium

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Equilibrium

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 29 May 2015, 02:11

Hi everyone,

After two months year of coding, and about 350 1500 test games, i finally finished my mod that fixes most balance issues and improves gameplay. Every change i did is calculed, and then tested, but something might still be wrong. If you found something, please give me feedback and replay, if its valid argument i will fix it. I want it to be as good as posible.

You can find this mod in the mod vault under name: "Equilibrium_balance_mod" bur while mod vault is broken
You can download the mod right here as well:
https://mega.nz/#!g9BGCSDa!tYUMPLvXKn0CKGX5rkfl1Je7V29xbPF6peJHM613u7Y
To install simply unpack into your mods folder, and enable in game. It works pretty much out of the box.

Here is complete change log that describes most of the changes, even excel version with all unit stat can be found in mod files (units stats.xsl).
The complete changelog is way too long to read, it's only there to searching for specific information.

WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT:
Spoiler: show
1. *All* most annoying imbalances with the game fixed: SACUs, ACU/Cybran TML, Strat rush, Harby rush, UEF navy, Titans, Outhuums, Mercies, and more!
2. *All* units are now usefull - and not just in one specific way, you can now build beetles for things OTHER than snipes!
3. Veterancy overhaul. No more crazy instant-healing, all units gain vet points based on mass killed, and level up based on their own mass price.
4. Experimentals are no longer a cheese unit. Thanks to the veterancy changes, and buildtime adjustments they are a true T4 unit, not some win/mass donate mechanism.
5. Choice is now a thing in this game! No longer is it obviously good to build shield on Aeon com or T3 rush harbingers. You now have options available to you at all stages of the game. Try new things, be creative, theres plenty of room for that in this mod.


SURVIVELE MANUAL (what need to know before start play):
Spoiler: show
1. Mercies deal damage over time! Moving targets receive only a fraction of the damage.
2. Submarine warfare: Subs now counter suface ships; Sub Hunters counter subs and destroyers counter sub hunters!
3. Mass storages provide less adjacency and any mass stored in them is lost when they are destroyed.
4. RAS energy income has been nerfed, don't reclaim your pgens afterwards!
5. T4 units take much longer to build. Get t2/3 engineers, they are more efficient in this mod.
6. Veterancy doesn't instant-heal units anymore, don't rely on that when attacking with experimentals or your ACU.


CHANGELOG:
http://equilibrium.x10host.com/changelog/
Last edited by Ithilis_Quo on 03 Jul 2016, 11:15, edited 23 times in total.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Deering » 29 May 2015, 02:46

Moved to Mods. Also I don't see "because prettier number" as a balance mechanism. Still reading the rest.

EDIT: Read some more, and it seems strange to me that Torpedo bombers won't be able to deal with submarines. If you are not in the water you have no way of getting water vision. Normally Torp bombers would see subs with sonar but obviously can't do that anymore.

EDIT: Moved to Suggestions, as Ithilis sees this as a suggestion for balance and asked me to move it here.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby IceDreamer » 29 May 2015, 03:48

Sorry to say this, but I fully expect the gameplay of this to be either appallingly imbalanced, or exceedingly boring. You seem to be doing things like equating 25% cost with 25% DPS, or equating 5 range to needing a 25% DPS nerf. It simply can't be done like this and work properly, because the ways range, HP, cost, DPS, frontloadedness, accuracy, AOE, maneuverability, and so much more, play together creates situations infinitely more complex than any algorithm can solve.

I shall give just one example. You present your land balance by using the Pillar/Rhino/Obsidian comparison, but you only present Mass, HP, and DPS. Now, I could take the Obsidian and break it completely without changing any of those numbers. I could frontload the cannon even further, keeping the same DPS but making it much more powerful in real life. I could shift the HP/ShieldHP ratio around to create different unit uses and change how tanky it really is. I could change the speed. I could change the turning speed, or the projectile velocity, or the accuracy. None of it would show up in your mathematical analysis, but everything would change in-game, because this game is just too complex to balance purely with maths. Well... You CAN balance it with maths, by taking all those variables and making them the same, but then you end up with a sterile game nobody wants to play.

There are some interesting ideas in here, but the overall impression for me is that this is going to cause very sterile gameplay. I expect any top player who takes a look at this ingame will very quickly find a unit which is completely broken.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 29 May 2015, 10:10

Deering wrote:it seems strange to me that Torpedo bombers won't be able to deal with submarines. If you are not in the water you have no way of getting water vision. Normally Torp bombers would see subs with sonar but obviously can't do that anymore.


thanks for feedback, This is true, but its not different as was in normal game, when you want to destroy cybran submarines, was it problem? In most of game no, but potentialy yes, so i also add small omny (10radius) on T1 scout that see submarine with stealth, and can cooperate with torpedo bombers.

IceDreamer wrote:Sorry to say this, but I fully expect the gameplay of this to be either appallingly imbalanced, or exceedingly boring.

honestly gameplay is faster, more agresive with more tricky posibilitys. Try it how its working in game and send me replay if is something wrong or cause boringnes im very likely to fix it.

IceDreamer wrote:You seem to be doing things like equating 25% cost with 25% DPS, or equating 5 range to needing a 25% DPS nerf. It simply can't be done like this and work properly, because the ways range, HP, cost, DPS, frontloadedness, accuracy, AOE, maneuverability, and so much more, play together creates situations infinitely more complex than any algorithm can solve.


of course the patern dont sole it for 100%, but its very helpfull. When you move only patern parameters then make sense that with move others you can make different units. of course - because have bigger rof more speed and etc, that unit cant be same.
To be honest T2 i nearly dont touch. pillar have 5more dps, rhino 2more dps, obsidian 125less hp and 0.05 more speed. When you take T2 as example why it cant work and would be steril, then its nearly same as in normal game. And T2 is most funny parth of land. I move T2 rules also on T3.

its too much words in changelog to be posible feel diferences only with reading.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby BRNKoINSANITY » 30 May 2015, 02:56

This is basically the accumulation of everything I have seen in past suggestions and balance thoughts from Ithilis....... Numbers rule all, and practical application doesn't count for anything. Looking at the list of changes, it is pretty clear that this is game balance by calculator, and an exceedingly boring version at that.

There are going to be a lot of broken units in this.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Exotic_Retard » 30 May 2015, 11:53

Looking at the list of changes,


I hope this doesn't come in as too harsh, i don't mean to offend anyone here:
Sorry but i would like to state my unappreciation of such an approach.
What happened here is people (not just BRNK) assume that they are able to skim through the changelog and know exactly what sort of impacts it is going to have on the game.
Not only is this completely wrong but actually this case is worse than many, because there are so many changes. Here, you simply cannot look at a units change and say: X is op. Because all the other units have also been changed. Even if you spend a lot of time on it you still cant memorize every change and calculate all the impacts on the game they will have as a whole.

Therefore i would like to suggest it is completely pointless in bashing this mod for, basically no reason since I humbly point out that if you haven't played the mod, you don't know what you're talking about and your opinion is therefore irrelevant.

Not even mentioning the extreme prejudice vs Ithilis in this whole situation, everyone just expects him to make a pile of shit, and doesn't bother looking. Such attitudes are what leads to less contributions to faf.

Would it be too much to instead try it out, and provide replay evidence as to what isn't working, and maybe actually help him out instead of mindlessly bashing?
Spoiler: show
Interestingly, Icedreamer actually bothered to do some testing beforehand, so his opinion is more valid than most here, however his conclusion .. well to be honest i have a suspicion of how he got there, but i think he simply missed out some things, i think the reason our conclusions differ is because he didn't play any games except vs ai, still what he said to me in PM is far more useful and constructive than what anyone has said in this thread, including himself.

"Don't judge a book by its cover" maybe has never been more apt
I made the terrible mistake of voting for Tokyto_
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 May 2015, 13:02

Bronkoinsanity Apofenas, what you see as boring part? Witch unit are broker, and why? IF its something broker i Will fix it and make it better! When is somethink wrong say mé what is wrong, but i dont want to hear everything is wrong, because then you only say that you dont know what are you talking about, because you never even try it.
I have more than 350game and 5 alfa testers witch was searching for broker stuff and still im sure some others are there, help me find them. but if you only dont know what to do with you urino use toalete, not me.
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Apofenas » 30 May 2015, 13:26

I'll point this out. This mod is big and has a lot of good and interesting stuff in it (and probably should make in into featured mods tab if it gets played a lot), howether i also dislike a lot of changes. I do want some of them to get in faf, but some of them are awfull in my opinion(get me to team speak if you want to know which, i don't want to type huge wall of text). I "liked" BRNK, because i also think this mod boring, as it removes some strategies and decreaces faction diversity(which could be both good and bad thing). You made a huge job, but will it worth it? The mod affects almost every unit in game, so pretty much every player in FAF(exept you ofc) can say "I dislike it, because it changed *insert unit name* balance".
#BringBackOldLadder
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Mad`Mozart » 30 May 2015, 16:07

Apofenas wrote:I'll point this out. This mod is big and has a lot of good and interesting stuff in it (and probably should make in into featured mods tab if it gets played a lot), howether i also dislike a lot of changes. I do want some of them to get in faf, but some of them are awfull in my opinion(get me to team speak if you want to know which, i don't want to type huge wall of text). I "liked" BRNK, because i also think this mod boring, as it removes some strategies and decreaces faction diversity(which could be both good and bad thing). You made a huge job, but will it worth it? The mod affects almost every unit in game, so pretty much every player in FAF(exept you ofc) can say "I dislike it, because it changed *insert unit name* balance".

+9999 to this

Sorry, but im not going to bother myself trying this mod out and testing it. Sooo many changes, are they even called for? Like this transport change for example, i never felt that there was something wrong with transports balance and never heard people talking about it, yet the change? Cant see any logical reason behind this other than it fitting this mod's special balance. And this leads to another question, why do we need to create completely new and different balance now? Maybe someone feel like FAF needs it, but so far i've seen many people disagreeing.


Also, to everyone who defends Ithilis and this mod. Im not here to bash anyone, but it seems that your only arguement is that there was a lot of work put into it. Well, that doesnt say anything at all. Maybe if you tried to actually tell why is this mod good and worth trying, that would convince people do so? Cause i've only seen you saying that the amount of changes is huge and you just cant grasp it like that. And thats... not really doing the job, does it? :|
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Re: Equilibrium

Postby Gorton » 30 May 2015, 18:21

I agree with the above from apof and mozart and also, I would like to add that sticking to the iterative progress that we've had over years, in this game and many others is probably for the best...

But of course, you can make what you like, it's yours to do. Good luck :D
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