Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 12 Feb 2018, 13:43

JoonasTo wrote:A couple observations.

Emissary with full T1 pgen adjacency is unable to break any T2 shields(except ED1 where the dome is too small to protect it,) they recharge too fast. Single T3 pgen adjacency is also not enough. You need full T1 pgen adjacency with two T2 pgens to break UEF T2 shield. Two T2 pgens and two T1 pgens to break through the other factions.

And so this isn't completely theoretical discussion, I went to the beta, made four protected SMDs(with the same template,) T3 arty grid and got to shooting. The result? Perhaps not what you'd expect.

Disruptor>Duke>Hovatham>Emissary

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I just tested it myself and the Emissary with t1 pgens can break t2 Aeon and t2 sera shields after a couple of shots.

- If one shot overkills the shield, the rest of the dmg is still applied and will therefore damage the units wich are in its AOE.
- Its stupid that the Emissary cant break t2 UEF shields, but thb they dont really offer any real protection against it either way, as about 3k off the dmg might still come through. I wouldnt count on it.
- If you build like 1-2 t2 pgens around it there is no stopping. T2 Pgens cost nothing, so why not just do that? I have been building t2 pgens around it for a long time and its pretty insane. But since many players still use t3 pgens to assist it... well yea rip anti.
- It also depends if it is the first arty on your team or not. If its the second you have no chance against it either way with t2 shields and if you have 1-2 t2 pgens around it the problem will solve itself pretty quickly aswell.

You have a valid point, but I still think it doesnt really come into play in the end. But yea the Duke, and to an extent the Disrupror and Hovatam, are pretty good for this. But imo that is still not enough to make the Disruptor useful. Id rather have a duke.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby JoonasTo » 12 Feb 2018, 14:22

Everybody uses T3 pgens because that way you get double DPS for the price of 4 T3 pgens(12k mass or so.) So yeah, I don't the think the particular Emissary short coming is a big one but it's still applicable when you're getting counter artied and the PGEN explosion could kill your shield gens, then you do T1 pgens. But just these T1 pgens are not enough to break basic T2 shielding so you need multiple Emissaries. That really sucks when your base is getting wrecked by a Duke or a Disruptor.

Of course the more arties you get, the better the emissary becomes because the slow rate of fire is negated. So while having only one arty the relations are like this in the beta:
Disruptor>Duke>Hovatham>Emissary>Hovatham(if you don't know where to aim)

With 2 or more arties the list most definitely goes the other way around:
Emissaries>Dukes>Hovathams>Disruptors>Hovathams(if you don't know where to aim)

PS. I'd prefer Hovatham gets one more AoE over accuracy btw. As it is now with the targeting problem the AoE at least somewhat benefits those who don't know about it while better accuracy would just make the problem worse.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 12 Feb 2018, 15:16

JoonasTo wrote:Of course the more arties you get, the better the emissary becomes because the slow rate of fire is negated. So while having only one arty the relations are like this in the beta:
Disruptor>Duke>Hovatham>Emissary>Hovatham(if you don't know where to aim)

With 2 or more arties the list most definitely goes the other way around:
Emissaries>Dukes>Hovathams>Disruptors>Hovathams(if you don't know where to aim)

PS. I'd prefer Hovatham gets one more AoE over accuracy btw. As it is now with the targeting problem the AoE at least somewhat benefits those who don't know about it while better accuracy would just make the problem worse.


Fair enough. I still think the Disruptor isnt a good "single" arty and isnt viable in many cases, cause the duke exists. It also doesnt hit anything, especially at high ranges, but okay the rest is pretty much an opinion. We will see if it will get bulit more often when the patch releases. Me for my part, still disagree strongly with these changes cause I dont think they really "buff" it to the extent it needs to be buffed. Especially compared to the Duke or the Emissary, even though the Emissary has a completely different use scenario.

And yea the Hovatam is pretty bad.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby moonbearonmeth » 12 Feb 2018, 17:53

Erich von Manstein wrote:Therefore I propose the following: Give Titan speed of 5 and acceleration of 5 and maybe make it turn faster.

Wew lad, I shouldn't laugh this hard in the morning.

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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby stormbeforedawn » 12 Feb 2018, 23:54

Why do you all act like people don't shield assist t3 shields with hives/other BP? Base regen means nothing for cracking a base in key locations. Alpha is everything in that.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby moonbearonmeth » 13 Feb 2018, 00:46

Because that only reasonably works on a subset of maps where that shield protects enough mass income to justify it or if the person with the arty is stupid.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby Erich von Manstein » 13 Feb 2018, 01:54

moonbearonmeth wrote:
Erich von Manstein wrote:Therefore I propose the following: Give Titan speed of 5 and acceleration of 5 and maybe make it turn faster.

Wew lad, I shouldn't laugh this hard in the morning.
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It's almost like... trying to catch labs with Auroras... or t1 tanks generally...
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby JoonasTo » 13 Feb 2018, 09:37

stormbeforedawn wrote:Why do you all act like people don't shield assist t3 shields with hives/other BP? Base regen means nothing for cracking a base in key locations. Alpha is everything in that.

First of all alpha doesn't matter when breaking such locations. Raw DPS does. This is because all T3 shields have enough hitpoints to survive T3 static arty shells. Alpha only matters if you've got something that does more damage than their shields can take(Mavor vs UEF/Cybran, double emissary, 3+ static arty, etc.)

So with that out of the way the problem with assisting shields is that it requires a great deal of income and there are better ways to protect yourself against them. If you're being shot at, just build more shields as long as you have space. Once you get 30 T2 shields(or 20 vs Emissary) or 20 T3 shields, you don't need to keep building more shields anymore. The arty won't get through after that so you can now spend the mass on something else.

Here are the numbers for protecting yourself against a T3 static arty(T3 pgen adjacent) by assisting T3 shields:
Aeon: 224 MPS 7 SCs
UEF: 264 MPS 8 SCs
Seraphim: 238 MPS 7 SCs
Cybran: 1152 MPS 8 SCs (DEVS PLS FIX!)

MPS=Mass per second
SCs=Support Commanders

So good luck to you all Cybrans out there trying to assist those shields with dem hives.
For everyone else, if you see the Cybrans assisting their shields, just keep shooting at them. They're going to be unable to do anything else.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 13 Feb 2018, 15:14

Well space is a big factor imo and you also have to take into account that its easier for players with a low APM (like me) to just shield assist instead of having to place t2/t3 shields everywhere (especially when the terrain isnt flat lol wich, more often than not, is the case).

I also have made terrible experiences with cybran shields. Yes the mass cost is really REALLY bad, but the energy cost is even worse. I have seen unexperienced players doom their whole base by shield assisting cybran shields, cause they instantly stalled like -20k. That is genuinely stupid and there is no way to deduce it before hand.
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Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

Postby FtXCommando » 13 Feb 2018, 22:12

Erich von Manstein wrote:It's almost like... trying to catch labs with Auroras... or t1 tanks generally...


For the sake of you and others please try to use reason to lead to a conclusion rather than getting a half-baked concept and then try to rationalize it with pseudo arguments.

Aurora = 2.9 speed
Lab = 4 speed

4-2.9 = 1.1. This is the BIGGEST speed difference possible at T1

New Loya = 3.8
Old Loya = 4

The LOWEST possible speed difference at T3 in your unfathomably bad suggestion is 1 (or 1.2).

So no, your comparisons are trash, stop trying to make UEF strong enough to carry you to ANOTHER 200 rating.
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