How to not suck against turtling players?

How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Kalavinka » 08 Aug 2016, 09:43

So I'm a hopeless noob, rank 374, trying endlessly to improve my game and having limited success. I like to think my aggression is pretty decent for the tier I'm at, but there's one big problem.

Turtling players.

Every single game I play, I seem to end up against turtling players - particularly UEF. They build shields, they build point defenses, and by the time I have a T3 army up they somehow seem to have a bigger one. My forward bases get bombarded by artillery, my every assault fails...

It's enough to get me to the boiling point.

But on a serious note, does anyone have any advice? I've attached a replay (warning: cringefest) of my most recent battle against a player who turtled HARDCORE. If anyone has the time, patience or even the simple desire to laugh at my expense, I would greatly appreciate being absolutely ripped to shreds.

Advice, criticism... anything helps. I'm looking to improve my game, and I can accept my own stupidity.

Thank you.
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Hawkei » 08 Aug 2016, 09:56

The turtling player is giving you an awesome gift. The map. Use it.

More land control = more resources.
More resources = more units.
More units = won games.

But here are some basic pointers about handling the turtle. Defensive structures don't move. They sacrifice the ability to move for combat efficiency. So the turtling player WANTS you to attack them. By attacking them, and loosing, you are giving them reclaim mass and keeping them in the game. The answer is simple, you dictate the terms of the engagement. You decide when to attack. So make sure that you win. Get more units. Get more artillery. Out range him. Get more missile batteries, and if it really is a good turtle then nuke it. If he makes a SMD, then strat bomb it and then nuke him.

So basically, the counters to a turtle, in order of escalation are:
1. Massed T1 artillery
2. Mobile Missile Launchers
3. TML batteries
4. T2 Gunships and bombers
5. Mobile T3 artillery
6. T3 and T4 assault bots
7. T3 bombers and gunships
7. Nukes
8. T3 static artillery

Or combinations of the above. Breaking turtles is simply a matter of reconisance and direct countering. You need to know what he has and how to counter it, and you also need to know when your units have been countered and when to escalate your attack to something else. You also need to evaluate what will happen if you do nothing and eco or tech up. Is it to your advantage to break the turtle, or will the time put you in the lead economically.
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Kalavinka » 08 Aug 2016, 10:15

Hawkei wrote:The turtling player is giving you an awesome gift. The map. Use it.

More land control = more resources.
More resources = more units.
More units = won games.

But here are some basic pointers about handling the turtle. Defensive structures don't move. They sacrifice the ability to move for combat efficiency. So the turtling player WANTS you to attack them. By attacking them, and loosing, you are giving them reclaim mass and keeping them in the game. The answer is simple, you dictate the terms of the engagement. You decide when to attack. So make sure that you win. Get more units. Get more artillery. Out range him. Get more missile batteries, and if it really is a good turtle then nuke it. If he makes a SMD, then strat bomb it and then nuke him.

So basically, the counters to a turtle, in order of escalation are:
1. Massed T1 artillery
2. Mobile Missile Launchers
3. TML batteries
4. T2 Gunships and bombers
5. Mobile T3 artillery
6. T3 and T4 assault bots
7. T3 bombers and gunships
7. Nukes
8. T3 static artillery

Or combinations of the above. Breaking turtles is simply a matter of reconisance and direct countering. You need to know what he has and how to counter it, and you also need to know when your units have been countered and when to escalate your attack to something else. You also need to evaluate what will happen if you do nothing and eco or tech up. Is it to your advantage to break the turtle, or will the time put you in the lead economically.


Thank you very much. The list helps big time.

I seemed to have trouble with my eco that game, which is another problem entirely. I'd been attempting to grasp more control of the map, but I evidently just wasn't getting the right units. I'll probably stuff that list in a notepad document and refer to it until I memorise it. v:

Much appreciated response!
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Morax » 25 Aug 2016, 15:37

The most important thing you can do is scout to confirm this person is indeed going for a turtle, stop production on a lot of factories so you can out-eco your opponent, then get the big, hard-hitting stuff like strats and exps to break it up.

Don't ever put up a fight with a fire base unless you are REALLY sure they are in a pinch.
Maps are important for FAF!

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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby codepants » 07 Sep 2016, 18:39

Kalavinka wrote:I seemed to have trouble with my eco that game...

If you want to get good at ladder, don't eco. 50% of ladder games last less than 15 minutes and 85% last less than 20 minutes. 85% that are longer than 20 minutes are decided before 20 minutes and just take time for the resolution to percolate.

A t2 mex costs 900 mass (about 20 tanks) and takes 2-3 minutes to pay for itself. In a 15 minute game, would you rather have a t2 mex for the last 5 minutes (2-3 of which it hasn't yet paid for itself) or 20 tanks?

Get good at spam and you will beat almost any turtle before they can turtle. If you don't -- go around them. Almost every map leaves you space to go around a turtle.

Learn a BO that lets you get 50 tanks on the map within ten minutes. It will likely rely on reclaim. But if you can do that on every map 10x10 or smaller, you will soar to about 1k, where hardly anyone turtles anymore (the only turtler I know above 1k is Electrician, and that's because he only exclusively plays UEF and only exclusively turtles. It's obnoxious. But the pros still beat him). And then learn how to eco.

Seriously though. If you're playing ladder under 1k on 10x10 maps or smaller and you end with a t2 mex, you're doing it wrong.

I suck on maps bigger than 10x10 so I'll let someone else comment there. :)
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby biass » 07 Sep 2016, 18:46

I agree
Many people i "train" go for t2 mexes far too early, and then stall mass and lose out on units doing so
try to fight for map control advantages, and then try to get a little bit of eco before he can take the map back

If he cannot take it back, and you keep ecoing with your advantage, you will crush
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Morax » 07 Sep 2016, 20:59

codepants wrote:Seriously though. If you're playing ladder under 1k on 10x10 maps or smaller and you end with a t2 mex, you're doing it wrong


This is very dependent on the map... I would not live by this advice as a map like Roanoake, Desert Planet II, etc will murder you for not starting eco early.
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby codepants » 07 Sep 2016, 22:00

Morax wrote:
codepants wrote:Seriously though. If you're playing ladder under 1k on 10x10 maps or smaller and you end with a t2 mex, you're doing it wrong


This is very dependent on the map... I would not live by this advice as a map like Roanoake, Desert Planet II, etc will murder you for not starting eco early.


Sure.

The point is:
1. Get map control.
2. (which comes after 1) If you can't win, eco until you can.
3. Repeat 1-2.
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby ax0lotl » 08 Sep 2016, 17:35

I see no replay, but if it's on a map where the chokepoints are defended by point defense and shields, your opponent does not make attack units and your land units cannot go around, against a low rated player you probably can do quite some damage with drops (transports) or TML (tactical missiles).
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Re: How to not suck against turtling players?

Postby Skriker » 04 Jul 2017, 00:44

Hi...
I also suck against turtling players. I bump into this guy quite a lot and he just sits in his base turtling... How do i batter down his eco before he gets t3 air? And also, what mod is he using? It seems to give him a big advantage
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