uef/cyb vs sera/aeon

[pip]

Hint : auroras are adjusted already a little bit in the Balance testing mod and UEF bomber behaviour improved especially against auroras. It would be interesting to see if UEF players have less trouble agaisnt Aeon because that's the intention.

Fobos on small water (or half land / half water) maps are another issue for which nothing has been tried yet in the mod.

[Zock]

2 more replays, judge for yourself

It would be nice if someone could produce a replay with aeon winning the t1 land spam phase

wat. Watch some top players replay, you'll encounter some rather soon.

[lebensnebel]

Thank you fror the replays zock.

(both are high noon aeon vs cybran)
From what I saw, auroras provide very nice raiding probabilites. To counter them you need pd at mex clusters and some landspam (which one usually wouldn't build on this map, in the first replay there was not enough counter spam?). Bombers don't counter 1 or 2 auroras on a raid (can dodge bombs) effectively.
Also aurora spam+ACU rush can hit hard if not prepared for.
You only can think about taking the two islands if you manage to take air or naval. Once you get naval, you almost have won?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this all just a consequence from the hover ability and not from the performance of the aurora vs other t1?
I don't see how a dps/hp/cost/speed nerf would change any of this. Maybe an acceleration nerf to make dodging (bombs) harder?

[Zock]

The replays were an addition to the 2 replays before, and were directed to zeps concerns.

There are two problems:

Aurora vs other tanks on land maps

Aurora/Fobo on small watermaps

The replays adress only the second problem. If anything is useable for the first, it is the performance of the bombers.

If you need replays to demonstrate first problem, it won't be hard to find some by watching good players on small maps with aeon vs another faction.

[Golol]

dodge bombs with an aurora army? how?
also what i have never seen or tested but what could work: drops against aurora raiding.
for example you have 10 auroraa raiding an expansion, and you drop 6 strikers right inside then. the auroras are prolly raped.
and btw: afer i saw the aurora vs isgies with dodging replays i tried doging with auroras in masses myself and the result is hat you cant kite as much and you get killed by t1 tanks

[Cantor]

The problem with bombers against auroras is the following: if your opponent makes some t1 mobile AA and interceptors you'll lose air control because you'll be fighting over his t1 aa to protect your bombers from his interceptors. Once you lose air control bombers become useless. If your opponent makes purely t1 mobile AA and no interceptors, bombers still work ~reasonably~ well.

[Myromax]

Has anyone ever tried lowering the muzzle velocity for auroras?
They can currently dodge most shots pretty easily, so it might be more balanced if the other side can do the same.

[Gerfand]

One thing that you can't see in uef/cybran late-game is raiding.
of course some is not possible in some maps(themo, setons) but in maps like open palms this can be "OP".
like PilOt said, just teach them about raid.

[errorblankfield]

The problem with bombers against auroras is the following: if your opponent makes some t1 mobile AA and interceptors you'll lose air control because you'll be fighting over his t1 aa to protect your bombers from his interceptors. Once you lose air control bombers become useless. If your opponent makes purely t1 mobile AA and no interceptors, bombers still work ~reasonably~ well.

I'd like to second this. The solution to a T1 tank can't be T1 air. Air in itself is balanced (or ideally should be).

If your opponent is using a lot of bombers (or just one), you switch to make some interceptor which will pretty much shut down ALL bombers until he buys enough interceptors of own. So basically, your saying you have to have complete air superiority to counter T1 spam -which is bad especially when Aeon have the best air.

Furthermore, the dynamics of air are such a way that if you are massing bombers (to kill tanks) your air defense isn't any better than if you had no bombers, you have to build a new unit for that. So you have to win air and maintain two units to counter one unit spam.

I vote for labs to be the aeon counter unit. Much better dynamic.

[sasin]

The problem with bombers against auroras is the following: if your opponent makes some t1 mobile AA and interceptors you'll lose air control because you'll be fighting over his t1 aa to protect your bombers from his interceptors. Once you lose air control bombers become useless. If your opponent makes purely t1 mobile AA and no interceptors, bombers still work ~reasonably~ well.

I'd like to second this. The solution to a T1 tank can't be T1 air. Air in itself is balanced (or ideally should be).

If your opponent is using a lot of bombers (or just one), you switch to make some interceptor which will pretty much shut down ALL bombers until he buys enough interceptors of own. So basically, your saying you have to have complete air superiority to counter T1 spam -which is bad especially when Aeon have the best air.

Furthermore, the dynamics of air are such a way that if you are massing bombers (to kill tanks) your air defense isn't any better than if you had no bombers, you have to build a new unit for that. So you have to win air and maintain two units to counter one unit spam.

I vote for labs to be the aeon counter unit. Much better dynamic.

Hey, 2 things.

1.) I think you have a little bit of a false dichotomy here. The bombers are, in general, a mass effective counter to the auroras. You're saying that the bombers are countered by intys, which is obviously true, but doesn't take away from the point. Those inties are mass that aren't going to auroras, which leaves the UEF player to outnumber his opponent on tanks, or just build inties to fight the inties. If the aeon player builds the exact thing to counter the exact UEF strategy, than sure, the aeon player will win. Like think of a few scenarios. I'm not going to use the database to make the numbers precise, but these should be more or less equal mass battles.

A.) 20 strikers vs. 20 auroras- advantage aeon
B.) 16 strikers + 2 bombers vs. 20 auroras- advantage UEF
C.) 16 strikers + 2 bombers vs. 18 auroras+ 4 mobile aa- advantage UEF?
D.) 16 strikers+ 2 bombers vs. 16 auroras + 4 mobile aa + 2 inties - advantage aeon

It seems like D is what you're thinking about, but there are obviously way more scenarios, like

E.) 13 strikers+2 bombers + 3 inties vs. 16 auroras + 4 mobile aa + 2 inties - advantage UEF
F.) 10 strikers+ 4 interceptors+ 3 bombers vs. 16 auroras + 4 mobile aa + 2 inties - big advantage UEF

Now maybe an aeon player sees one bomber and then suspects that a UEF player is going to go for a build like F.), so he does

G.) 10 strikers+ 4 interceptors+ 3 bombers vs. 11 auroras + 4 mobile aa + 7 inties - Huge advantage Aeon

but that build would get crushed by

H.) 18 strikers + 1 bomber vs. 11 auroras + 4 mobile aa + 7 inties - Huge advantage UEF

Basically, unless I am wrong about some of these scenarios, it seems to me that bombers present a fairly significant threat to auroras, at least in relatively big battles (more than 5 tanks per side), when it only takes one pass for a bomber to pay for itself. I'm thinking about like an early battle on one of the sides on twin rivers or desert joust , because that's a map I play a lot. On my level at least (~1200), people are never, ever aggressive enough with bombers to counter aeon hover tank spam. If those scenarios are right, it looks like aeon may have a slight advantage at this level, but a lot of who will do the best will be based on who is most flexible in their play and who does the best job scouting, which is like every other part of sup com, right? All this said, I do acknowledge that this applies to big focused battles. Perhaps for a wide open 1v1 map, auroras are more OP, but I have less experience with those maps. I kind of wonder, though, if one guy groups of like 3 auroras or whatever to all the different mass points, and then the other guy countered by sending a bomber to each point and having a group of inties ready to take on any aeon inties he sees, how that would go.


2.) All that said, I feel like making auroras slightly less accurate while firing and making labs more agile, faster, and slightly tougher seems like a nice solution. They don't have to be so good that they counter auroras mass for mass, but making them a little better against auroras and in general seems like a good idea.