T2/T3 land balance

[Mycen]

Don't be so bloody stupid. Perhaps if people played maps other than the 5k Starcraft wannabes and played the more open 10K and even 20K maps, which is what SupCom was supposed to be about IMO, they would realise just how strong an uncatchable unit will be, how strong the Loyalist and Titan already are in this role, and why it's a good place to point the Titan.

You're preaching to the choir here. It's nice to see someone who doesn't think that Isis and Setons are the paragons of map design...

There is always something else to shoot. There are Mexes, undefended bases to get in behind, Engineers to harass and kill. Unlike other raiding units, this thing really has considerable firepower to get the job of killing that T3 Mex or Pgen done, and in good time. There's no way in hell T2 will be able to intercept in time, and if they resort to trying T1, which can keep up a bit better, they will find that the Titan is just as effective as ever at ripping T1 forces to tiny bits of scrap metal.

This is the part that I said I agreed with before!What I want to know is if you can clarify what you were talking about when you said they should not able to engage T2. Do you mean mass-for-mass, or versus a full T2 formation, or what? Because while it makes sense that a group of Titans should not be able to defeat a group of T2 tanks in formation with shields and everything, I would think that, for example, three Titans should certainly have a shot at beating seven or eight pillars. What kind of values did you have in mind?

Were it up to me, I'd also dramatically improve Titan handling as well as putting the Speed up. This way they become the most micro-able unit in the game, a throwback to the Mech Marines of old. While they wouldn't have the brute force for it, microing it would suddenly allow you not only to take on T2 forces with much better odds, but do some really fun stuff: Micro so that Gunships can't hit you, Dance your way into range of T2 PD to kill it, Solo an ACU, take Percivals on face to face, avoid Bombers sent to stop your deeply irritating raiding missions, the list goes on and on.

This is where I don't agree. You yourself were talking about what SupCom should be, right? Having micro decide the outcome of battles is a big part of that. BUT, units should never be set up such that microing them allows them to be five and ten times more effective. T3 mech marines? Sure! But they shouldn't be so fast that they can dodge, for example, gunship fire. That's too much, especially for a unit that can avoid the effects of attrition thanks to its shield.

[Gerfand]

I made a test w/ the 4.3 speed Titan and a 20 range Loyalist...(I was unable to change the Titan Damage)

and the Result is:
Loyalist Win...
is like what I said the Titan can get on his target but, can he kill it?

[IceDreamer]

This is the part that I said I agreed with before!What I want to know is if you can clarify what you were talking about when you said they should not able to engage T2. Do you mean mass-for-mass, or versus a full T2 formation, or what? Because while it makes sense that a group of Titans should not be able to defeat a group of T2 tanks in formation with shields and everything, I would think that, for example, three Titans should certainly have a shot at beating seven or eight pillars. What kind of values did you have in mind?

OK so when I say 'Shouldn't be able to engage T2' what I mean is that at no point should Titans be the go-to unit for taking the fight to a player who is already heavily into the T2 game, despite the fact that Loyalist CAN do so to a good extent, especially next to the newly nerfed Bricks; we have Percivals for that. I also think that at no point should they beat T2 mixed armies Mass for Mass.

Currently in the active game, Titans beat T2 Tanks (So, non-mixed) by about 25%, in spite of their short range. This would be similar to if Blazes could kill Strikers by 25% (They can't, and that's GOOD). Instead, Blazes beat Strikers by a much smaller margin, if they even win at all, and that's where I want Titan to be relative to the T2 Heavy tanks. So by all means, if your 5 or 6 strong Titan raiding force runs into 5 or 6 Obsidian, the Titans should of course be victorious, but if it's 10 or 11 Obsidian, the Titans should probably lose (Titans are only 1.25* the Mass of Obsidian!!!). That's fine though, that's RIGHT, because the Titan has the ability to simply leg it once it gets overpowered. Oh, and VS T1 it will be just as much of a stomping as it is currently.

This is where I don't agree. You yourself were talking about what SupCom should be, right? Having micro decide the outcome of battles is a big part of that. BUT, units should never be set up such that microing them allows them to be five and ten times more effective. T3 mech marines? Sure! But they shouldn't be so fast that they can dodge, for example, gunship fire. That's too much, especially for a unit that can avoid the effects of attrition thanks to its shield.

The depth in SupCom comes not from the separation of micro and macro, but the integration and blurring of every part of the game. It comes from the fact that Micro is not a necessity, but is almost always a viable route for giving yourself an advantage, whether it be in Eco or in Combat. Some units in this game reward micro more highly than others, with T3 Artillery at one end of the scale and T1 bombers at the other. I'd like to push Titans to the T1 Bomber end, a unit which is extremely rewarding. It won't be able to take on 5 times its own mass in Pillars all of a sudden, but I'd be very happy with an effectiveness increase of 100% with careful, skilled micro, especially when you bear in mind the attention doing so takes off that player's other concerns.

[Mycen]

Okay, that's a much more nuanced position, I like it.

but I'd be very happy with an effectiveness increase of 100% with careful, skilled micro, especially when you bear in mind the attention doing so takes off that player's other concerns.

That would be fine, and certainly fitting for a fast raider-type unit. Perhaps you were just waxing hyperbolic before, but when you were talking about microed Titans being able to dodge PD and even gunship fire, I was disturbed. For goodness's sake, neutralizing fast ground raiders is half of what gunships are meant to do! The defender shouldn't have to invest as much or more attention to defeating a raid as the attacker must invest in carrying it out, since they already have to invest more mass to defend against raiders. If they have to micro their units to perfection to hope to take out the Titans, then the attention disadvantage of Titan raiding is neutralized, which is bad.

Like errorblankfield said, it has to be calibrated very carefully.

[Hawkei]

Some units in this game reward micro more highly than others, with T3 Artillery at one end of the scale and T1 bombers at the other. I'd like to push Titans to the T1 Bomber end, a unit which is extremely rewarding. It won't be able to take on 5 times its own mass in Pillars all of a sudden, but I'd be very happy with an effectiveness increase of 100% with careful, skilled micro, especially when you bear in mind the attention doing so takes off that player's other concerns.

ShadowKnight... You've betrayed your lack of understanding when it comes to micro. T3 artillery (the static kind) is at its BEST when it is microed. The factor of increase for a microedT3 artillery is greater than for a T1 bomber. Un-microed T3 artillery will simply 'blap' away at the nearest usless thing it can get its crosshairs on. A controlled T3 artillery will go for the jugular. It will hit T3 power, engie spams, and SMD's.

As for the Titans anti-T2 capability. I would expect that it's proper place is somewhere similar to that of the AA on the Seraphim T3 submarine. The benefit of the Titan is in being able to strike any small squad of defenders at the target. Which, in combination with its speed, gives it the flexibility to complete its mission. (An opportunity gain). The advantage in destroying T2 is not the attrition advantage, but rather in the damage the Titan is able to do with the opportunity their destruction creates. Just like a sera sub surfacing to take out some pesky torp bombers, before getting on with the real mission.

Where the Titan sits in the current release is on the low end of what I would consider appropriate. In relation to T2. Nerfing it by any amount would make it seriously UP.

... Mind you, I just had a cool idea with the rocket pack model. What if instead of firing tactical missles it fired a volley of rocket artillery. With a long reload time and a firing range > T1 PD. It would reload missiles slowly (with a build cost) and require manual launch to fire (like a TML). The rockets could even be made to target Gunships . It wouldn't add significantly to the overall DPS. But it would be a nice bit of functionality for ambushing PD before the raid. Perhaps the rocket model Titan could be built alongside the conventional one.

[IceDreamer]

LMAO

Errrm, yeah, OK. By 'Micro' T3 Artillery, you realise that the furthest it can ever go is 'Choose target, click' once every 5 minutes. That's not exactly micro now is it, and even when you do that, it still can't really hit the broad side of a barn. In short, it barely rewards your micro, if at all.

Further, an uncontrolled T3 Artillery might not be perfect or even close, but it's still an enormously powerful nuisence for the enemy to deal with, it still kills an enormous amount of stuff. T1 Bombers go from being a minor irritation to game-winningly powerful in the blink of an eye with proper micro, you know, the kind of micro where you control every aspect of the unit's functionality (Can't do this with T3 Artillery).

[Kat]

LMAO

Errrm, yeah, OK. By 'Micro' T3 Artillery, you realise that the furthest it can ever go is 'Choose target, click' once every 5 minutes. That's not exactly micro now is it, and even when you do that, it still can't really hit the broad side of a barn. In short, it barely rewards your micro, if at all.

Further, an uncontrolled T3 Artillery might not be perfect or even close, but it's still an enormously powerful nuisence for the enemy to deal with, it still kills an enormous amount of stuff. T1 Bombers go from being a minor irritation to game-winningly powerful in the blink of an eye with proper micro, you know, the kind of micro where you control every aspect of the unit's functionality (Can't do this with T3 Artillery).

Shadow... Have you ever used a T3 artillery station in an actual game?

I understand T1 bombers are powerful early game if your enemy can't build any counters... But T3 artillery is a game ender in 90% of games I've played.

Unless you're referring to the skill ceiling of each? In which case I'm 100% in agreement with you.

[Hawkei]

LMAO

Errrm, yeah, OK. By 'Micro' T3 Artillery, you realise that the furthest it can ever go is 'Choose target, click' once every 5 minutes...

Actually, it is more like Shift select a group of targets. So that they can be destroyed in sequence. Target selection, while the operation is straight forward, does require some skill. It requires scouting, and often it needs the player to look in the 3D mode, to determine exactly what is protected by shield layering. It then requires the player to select the appropriate targeting strategy. With the intent being to cripple the opponent economically. The primary target is of course T3 pgens. Both because they are volatile, and because they are needed to power the shields which counter the arty.

Sometimes, the best use is to force attrition of ground units. Or ASF which are parked on the ground. Which often requires a target change between every one or two shots. Projectile travel is so long, that shots are often wasted of the arty is left to itself. When every shot needs to count, you change the targets after every shot.

Another interesting use for T3 arty is killing air units. Either CZAR or ASF patrols. This requires that the arty be ground fired, such that the projectile will make a collision with the aircraft. Which actually does take a bit of skill

TL;DR: The skill lies not in issuing the attack command, but rather, in knowing what to attack.

[errorblankfield]

So I'm just going to side step the semantic mirco debate -both sides clearly know what the other meant.

:Dramatic side step motion with 'Woosh' sound:

@Firewall

What do you mean use 3D mode to see what is or isn't covered by overlapping shield? Stupid question, I know. But you always have fun gems that improve my gameplay.

Do you literally just mean pan the camera back and see how many shields are between you and target?

I can do that in my head, but I can see the utility there.


Anywho, still skeptically optimistic for a raiding titan. Though part of me thinks the loyalist deserves this more... yea it's the better of the two units, but I don't build them that often once we are in the brick phase except for surprise TMD defense. Of the two races, it fits much better with the cybran MO. If UEF had the loyalist now, and cybran had the titan -we'd be suggesting the same buff (I think). It works for both, but I like it under my main flag more. >:D

[Hawkei]

So I'm just going to side step the semantic mirco debate -both sides clearly know what the other meant.

ramatic side step motion with 'Woosh' sound:

@Firewall

What do you mean use 3D mode to see what is or isn't covered by overlapping shield? Stupid question, I know. But you always have fun gems that improve my gameplay.

Sorry, yea, it was a bit beside the point. 3D view is accessed by holding the shift key and moving the mouse. It will literally put the camera POV right inside the maze of overlapping shields. It is most especially useful for planning teleport attacks. Because, you need to work out exactly where to position to kill the shield gens without a shield layer intercepting the shot. Same also applies for determining which T3 Pgens will cause a chain reaction and which wont.