Other minor changes

[Zock]

This thread is to discuss everything regarding all other changes. Please make sure to read the overview and rules first: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5681

In specific, but not exclusive:

Sera destroyer/t3 sub
static flak

[FunkOff]

I think the seraphim destroyer is fine, honestly. The T3 sub should get a small speed and range deduction though, 10% each.

[ColonelSheppard]

i always wondered about this:
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UAL0205
EDIT: databasebug

[ZLO_RD]

i always wondered about this: http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UAL0205 it doesnt seem logic in any way, i think it's bad

all static flacks are same, it is just DB is wrong there

[Ato0theJ]

The seraphim t3 sub is sort of OP, but it is sort of justified as seraphim is the only faction without a naval experimental. Uef has Atlantis, cybran has megabot, and aeon has tempest. Without a really good t3 naval unit, seraphim would be vastly UP at t3, the same way when everyone cried about the Percy being OP, but everyone justified it by saying that they had no direct fire experimental, which was true. Unless if Seraphim gets a naval experimental(that can build units, as they also lack a mobile factory), it isn't fair to Nerf their best naval unit. The tempest is getting a buff, and a good mix of coopers and atlantic are already good against t3 subs, but cybran are still at a big disadvantage, maybe match the megalith torp range with the sub while bumping the anti torp reload up to 10 seconds or so, not sure how that will go though.

TL;DR: Don't nerf the t3 sub, boost cybran and aeon t4 naval slightly if anything is deemed absolutely necessary.

A destroyer Nerf may be fair if the beam mod is implemented, but that will have to come after the mod itself.

[Axeleration]

The seraphim t3 sub is sort of OP, but it is sort of justified as seraphim is the only faction without a naval experimental. Uef has Atlantis, cybran has megabot, and aeon has tempest. Without a really good t3 naval unit, seraphim would be vastly UP at t3, the same way when everyone cried about the Percy being OP, but everyone justified it by saying that they had no direct fire experimental, which was true. Unless if Seraphim gets a naval experimental(that can build units, as they also lack a mobile factory), it isn't fair to Nerf their best naval unit. The tempest is getting a buff, and a good mix of coopers and atlantic are already good against t3 subs, but cybran are still at a big disadvantage, maybe match the megalith torp range with the sub while bumping the anti torp reload up to 10 seconds or so, not sure how that will go though.

TL;DR: Don't nerf the t3 sub, boost cybran and aeon t4 naval slightly if anything is deemed absolutely necessary.

A destroyer Nerf may be fair if the beam mod is implemented, but that will have to come after the mod itself.

Yes, I mostly agree with what you said, but about cybran shouldn't we also count in that they have Harms which can hold the fort while ground firing?
Well, if anything, then maybe a slight nerf at t3 subs air capability

[FunkOff]

T... as seraphim is the only faction without a naval experimental..... Without a really good t3 naval unit, seraphim would be vastly UP at t3,

I agree with this. However, I think a better strategy is the re-tool naval TML and SML launchers. With an improved TML and SML, the sraphim carrier and bship will be overpowered beasts... but manageable. T3 sub spam being unbeatable on the ocean just sucks to fight against. It turns naval battles into air battles... ASF spam :-/

[Ato0theJ]

I agree with this. However, I think a better strategy is the re-tool naval TML and SML launchers. With an improved TML and SML, the sraphim carrier and bship will be overpowered beasts... but manageable. T3 sub spam being unbeatable on the ocean just sucks to fight against. It turns naval battles into air battles... ASF spam :-/

The TML on the carrier is a joke, it is no better than the cruiser and it has worse AA. Pretty shitty unit overall. Maybe if it had the same TML added to it as the strat missile sub (http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 03,URS0304) it would be worth it, but ATM, it's just a lame air factory that doesn't get adjacency bonus. Still, if this can't prove to allow seraphim to maintain the best t3 navy, it shouldn't be implemented. Seraphim really got the shaft on the experimental front and the OP subs are the only thing to make up for it.

Yes, I mostly agree with what you said, but about cybran shouldn't we also count in that they have Harms which can hold the fort while ground firing?
Well, if anything, then maybe a slight nerf at t3 subs air capability

Harms are easy to kill if you have a few cruisers and set them to ground fire. Nothing cybran has can touch them at range either. It was one of the reasons I quit playing cybran.

[laPPen]

about the t3subhunter:

Uef can counter it already by a good unit mix i think we can agree about that.

aeon can work with those t2 subs and the strong desstroyer anti sub weapon, combined with shield spamm untill a tempest is online. As it looks like the tempest will get a small torpedo buff. In my opinion the tempest is already a decent counter to t3 subs (same torp range + groundfire with main cannon) so aeon will propably be fine vs sera after this patch.
not to forget u can always sneak in some of those awesome t3 torps to tip the balance in a sea fight.

the only real problem is cybran. lets see what cybran has in their arsenal: megabot has good torp defenses but gets outranged by the subs, that might be a point to work with.
giving the megalith the same torp range like the subs might help (but could make the mega too strong aswell). The other thing cybran has is harms: the harms could really use a rework. making sure that they cannot get ground fired (at least in deep waters) could be the way to go. I somewhere read that the harms is not located at the ground of the sea as it is should be , but somewhere at 50 % of the depth. If that would be fixable it could really help. But even with the harms fix it would still be a static solution, it would not give cybran a tool to establish global sea dominance it would only help to provide a save haven. So i would prefer a carefully handled megalith torpedo range buff. The harms is something that could get on the "make every unit worth its price" list.

[IceDreamer]

OK, how about nerfing the Subhunter's vision range a decent chop? This would really help a well-mixed CYbran navy, as with their Stealth boat they can probably (I am just guessing here) then get in range with Destroyers/Subs/Battleship Groundfire without the Subhunters being able to retaliate. If the hunters then move in, that has nullified one of the main strengths, the fact that they can just kite everything.

It's not a solution in itself, but might it work to reduce the problem a bit?