uef/cyb vs sera/aeon balanceteam only

[Zock]

This thread is to discuss everything regarding the faction balance. Only balanceteam members can post here, use the other thread for guest contributions.

In specific, but not exclusive:

Aeon early t1 in general (Aurora)
UEF early/midgame vs aeon (Mongoose, Lobo, bomber, other?)
UEF/Cyb vs Aeon/Sera on small watermaps (Jester, UEF Bomber, Fobo?, sera destroyer (discussion for that one in other thread))

[Zock]

Think we all agree that an aurora nerf is needed (alternative would be maybe some t1 aa nerf, but as bombers are so unreliable, i don't like that), but it should be mentioned that auroras are supposed to be strong, making them equal with other tanks would be over the top.

We have a small missing chance for them while moving now (they were the only tank that didn't miss, after the latest changes), this value can be adapted if the firepower is still too strong, or became too weak.
I'd like to add a 0.2-0.3 speednerf too, because it is currently really easy to use the auroras, compared to the reward they give. Slower speed will make it a bit more punishing to not kite in the right moment. It will also extend the aeon weakness in expanding and reacting to raiding a bit, as tradeoff for the aurora firepower. It will also nerf them a little bit on small watermaps, maybe not meaningfull, but its still a step into the right direction.


A bit more difficult is how to buff uef/cyb or nerf sera/aeon on watermaps.

The small aurora speednerf will do a tiny bit.
The UEF bomberchange will propably be the most important thing to help uef on watermaps, and also vs aeon on landmaps. For second, mongoose have a small buff now too, its maybe not even needed with the aurora nerf/bomber buff.
For cybran, a change to make the jester earlier aviable, could help them a lot, especcially against fobos. It will be a bit tricky to find values though, it is easy to make the jester too strong or too weak. But it is propably the most appealing solution for cybran.

If this changes won't be enough, or don't work, we can consider other things. I don't think auroras will be such a problem with above changes, for fobos i'm not so sure. It might be worth to think about a small sera t1 navy nerf to compensate, when they still have their good destroyer, it shouldn't hurt them too much, while compensating their early advantage. But it propably won't be needed, we'll see after the above changes or your alternatives to it.

[pip]

My take on the aurora:
is first to find the sweet value for firing randomness while moving. Between 0.5 (barely any visible effect) and 1 (half shots will miss while they move), there is probably a sweet spot where they are still strong, but weaker while retreating (enemies will miss them when they dodge, but they will also have a chance to miss ). For me, 0.6 or 0.7 give good results in closed tests, but 1v1 competitive games with balance testing mod would be necessary to verify. Current value is 0.6.

For speed reduction, since Zep vetoed a specific speed reduction over water, I wouldn't mind a very tiny adjustment (-0.1) for fine tuning. But I don't like a aurora below 3 speed on land. It's normal that longer range equals slower speed, but slower speed than 3 at t1 should be kept for arties IMO. I fear that the gap with mantis would be definitely too big at lower than 3 speed.

For small naval maps:
Normally, a UEF bomber buff and jester adjustment will help a lot against auroras and fobos on small / medium size water maps, but it may not be enough against fobos (much stronger than auroras imo, because it's impossible to defend a possition with a t1 pd, they can attack from below cliffs, etc). I don't really like a t1 naval nerf to Sera because they have already a big disadvantage : weakest t1 subs.
So I would favor, if still needed, a fobo small speed nerf to give more reaction time to defend against them with bombers / jester / more time to build frigates in order to intercept them. And since fobos are very strong on land, a -0.2 speed nerf would not hurt too much overall balance (they can still dodge, have great DPS, rate of fire, AOE, etc).

[Zock]

I fear that the gap with mantis would be definitely too big at lower than 3 speed.

Are you afraid mantis become too good against auroras? I don't think that will be an issue. It would also be easy to see, so if its really the case, we could revert the speed change. 0.2 speed is already really small.

I don't really like a t1 naval nerf to Sera because they have already a big disadvantage : weakest t1 subs.
So I would favor, if still needed, a fobo small speed nerf to give more reaction time to defend against them with bombers / jester / more time to build frigates in order to intercept them. And since fobos are very strong on land, a -0.2 speed nerf would not hurt too much overall balance (they can still dodge, have great DPS, rate of fire, AOE, etc).

I think sera t1 is very good balanced on land. I wouldn't want to touch it. -0.2 won't make it unbalanced, but the change should really help on water, else it's not worth to do it.
And i don't think it would really help. The problem with fobos are the attention they need to get killed, and a speed nerf would make the fobos come a bit later (even tho -0,2 are a few seconds, its barly any help in that matter anyway), they still need the same amount of attention to get countered.

so:
-it would have small, but still negative effects on land maps
-it has a really small effect on watermaps too
-i don't think this effect does actually help with the problem

But we should maybe determinate if there need to be any additional nerf to sera after uef bomber/jester first, before we waste time discussing this.
I'd guess so though, because if the uef bomber gets roughly as good as the cybran bomber is now, uef will be about as good as cybran is now too, and thats not enough.
Alternatives could be a even stronger bomber, or something with the riptide. While cybran gets balanced via the jester, but the possibilities with the jester are very limited too, to not make it OP on land maps.

[pip]

Attention to counter fobos = time consuming. Slower speed gives more time to react and prepare counters. It sure will help if riptides can counter fobos better, but they are a t2 unit, it takes time and resources to get them so it won't solve the issue at t1 and the huge advantage a sera player can get by that stage of the game to get map control, secure wrecks, etc.

Arties don't need a fast speed because they are not for raiding. They are supposed to stay in the back. Yet fobos are used as raiding units on naval maps, because they are not so slow. Nerfing slightly their speed nerf mainly this raiding use, not the normal use in a mixed army. Nerfing anything else for the fobo wil be a much bigger nerf for land battles. Also, slower speed will help uef bomber to be more efficient against fobos because it deals damages over time.

But let's see first how the uef bomber fares now before adjusting anything else.