unbuilt units

[Zock]

And if you now increase your 1200 hp by 50%, because cost increased by 50%, you will end up by 1800 hp. Oh wait..thats very close to the 1850 hp i gave them. This can't be correct..

[Golol]

if those results are then id see this as a proof that the rhino pillar balance is nearly perfect.
maybe give the rhino 1 speed and slow pillar projectile.
and then change the wagner. it doesnt need punching power to kill outlying mexes and engineers. none of the other amphibious tanks has such punching power

[IceDreamer]

And if you now increase your 1200 hp by 50%, because cost increased by 50%, you will end up by 1800 hp. Oh wait..thats very close to the 1850 hp i gave them. This can't be correct..

Point taken.

Even so, in my testing a mixed, microed Cybran army loses to and mixed unmicroed Aeon one, despite the 1v1 battles now being fairly balanced across the board in every combination. My micro is by no means perfect or even remotely good, but I need suggestions for toning Aeon down. To my mind Pip's looking right at the mobile shields is exactly the right move. Without them, Aeon had trouble, but replace a few Obsidian with Shields and Blaze, and the army becomes very, very strong...

Oh, and my Wagner change was right on the money, they are no longer favourable for a combat role, losing convincingly to their own mass in Rhinos, but much faster and amphibious, exactly what they should be.

I shall continue testing, then post my entire suite of results here, along with the final changes I made.

[Golol]

a 50% health increase for the rhino is about 1750 and 100 does make a difference.
hoe about just not changing so much and giving the rhino 50 hp?
and proportionally increasing health and damage with cost doesnt mean balanced.
imagine a pillar would have the damage and health of 4 strikers.
100 dps and 1200 health

[Zock]

And if you now increase your 1200 hp by 50%, because cost increased by 50%, you will end up by 1800 hp. Oh wait..thats very close to the 1850 hp i gave them. This can't be correct..

Point taken.

Even so, in my testing a mixed, microed Cybran army loses to and mixed unmicroed Aeon one, despite the 1v1 battles now being fairly balanced across the board in every combination. My micro is by no means perfect or even remotely good, but I need suggestions for toning Aeon down. To my mind Pip's looking right at the mobile shields is exactly the right move. Without them, Aeon had trouble, but replace a few Obsidian with Shields and Blaze, and the army becomes very, very strong...

Oh, and my Wagner change was right on the money, they are no longer favourable for a combat role, losing convincingly to their own mass in Rhinos, but much faster and amphibious, exactly what they should be.

I shall continue testing, then post my entire suite of results here, along with the final changes I made.

Well, rhinos beat blaze, blaze beat rocketbots, obsidians beat rhinos, and rocketbot beats obsidian (if they have enough room to kite, what you don't have too often actually).

But you can use the rhinos vs obsidians anyway, you rarly have even numbers in fights. You could try to mix wagners to split under the shields and snipe them. With the old speed, rhinos could kite obsidians, i think it's not possible anymore, but its worth a try. Rhinos could get back to 3 speed aswell, if needed that they do a little bit better vs obsidian. But before i need to see how good the shields really became..from the values they look quite strong now, but shields aren't easy to evaluate, and will need some more real games to test for me.

But this is not the correct topic to discuss aeon or shields.

[Golol]

if you build blaze, you are wasting mass except if it is for naval use.
anything owns your blaze. t1, heavy tanks and i havent tested it yet but i think also rocket bots can take care of blazes.
if they can in any way then aeon basically doesnt have a counter to them.
if obsidians with shields beat anything that doesnt have range or isnt t1 it doesnt mean the shields need to get weaker.
a obsidian shield army should be a moving fortress that you cant just attack with your army but you have to weaken it with rocketbots and finish it with t1 spam.
as a seraphim, when facing an obsidian army you should take care to use your range to get down the shields. withot shields the obsidians wont stand a chance against the chickenbots

[IceDreamer]

Zock and I have concluded that the current Rhino change is pretty much on the money. Now more time is needed to see if it becomes the weapon of choice over the Wagner, or not. If not, well we'll deal with that if it comes.

[Nombringer]

Okay, replay with rhino's in actuall games coming out in a few hours.

@Shadow I completely agree with the change. I was just annoyed because you suggested they were overbuilt and overpowered, while proposing only a slight buff to rhino counter that, but it's all over now so I'm just going to try and get some replays

[IceDreamer]

Okay, replay with rhino's in actuall games coming out in a few hours.

@Shadow I completely agree with the change. I was just annoyed because you suggested they were overbuilt and overpowered, while proposing only a slight buff to rhino counter that, but it's all over now so I'm just going to try and get some replays

Cool, looking forward to replays. My only issue with Zock's plan is that he wants to use the Wagner as the centrepiece of T2 balance, not the Pillar. IE - If the Wagner is still used more, it's not the Wagner in the wrong, it's everything else around it... Which can indeed come out with a good result, but I can't help feeling it will mean more changes than are strictly necessary.

[Golol]

what i dont like is that the balance between factions is getting changed because the balance in cybran is not nice.
do shadows changes to rhino and give the wagner 85 or 90 dps and 1350 or 1400 health. if this wagner is built over the rhino then the riptide would be built over the pillar.
speed doesnt make such a huge difference in most battles since the wagners cant really kite.
this change is not as drastic as other ones.
only cybran needs to be changed.
maybe this change is not good enough but i think rather this should be tested than such big changes