unbuilt units

[Golol]

if the rhino and the pillar are both good and worth to build, but the wagner is still built over the rhino. but the riptide isnt built over the pillar. then id say the problem lies with the wagner.
buffing cybran t2 and therefore uef much should be prevented in any way because theoretically 100 other units would have to be changed but they wont be and many will be pissed because balance is now different.

[Nombringer]

Crazed said even now, with the new Rhino, he woulnd't really make them and prefer Wagner in most situations. Because speed is key. So to do what you want, if he is correct (and i'd agree), the current rhino buff is actually not enough to make it worth more then wagner. Having a rhino that is a tiny bit better then wagner in firepower won't make it usefull, when it's slower. When it is slower, it must be significantly stronger. 200 more HP for the rhino will change exactly nothing. The rhino would stay useless. What you want is pretty much what the change intends to do, we just have very different opinions on what is needed to make it worth more then wagner. And also value the strenght vs t1 different. The hoplite kills t1, the wagner kills t1. Having a rhino that can also kill t1 isn't a big reason to build it, when it is bad at everything else. That is the reason why i favorited the current above the second alternative, along with the need to change only 1 unit instead of 2.

So to me its either the current change, and if people would think uef t2 gets too weak, with a small! pillar buff (i don't think its needed, but it wouldn't hurt much either)

or the alternative i posted above - rhino back to full t1 killer and useless vs t2, and wagner t2 killer instead.

Anything else will be suboptimal in my opinion.

Golol, we have already explained this

[Golol]

his point is to just buff the rhino a lot, and then buff other units if necessary.
my point is to make the wagner as strong as the riptide.
a amphi tank doesnt need to have full battle capabilities. if you use amphi tanks vs usal tanks on land you should get owend. the wagner is too strong in this. not much, but a bit.
and the new wagner has 66% of wagners dps, %ca. 66% of health and 66% cost and still the 3.7speed.
if thr current wagner would still be used over the changed rhino the changed wagner would also be used over the changed rhino.
well since i propably wont change much can anyone say what the pillar buff will be like?
the lillar should still be superior to rhino vs t2
overall this patch will be he heavy tank buff (obsi, pillar and rhino)
id rather like t as a amphi tank balance but thats ny opinion

[IceDreamer]

Shadow, doing that will only ensure neither the wagnerr nor the rhino will built that much, leaving hoplite as the only decent choice, to be honest it more of a nerf than anything.

Edit: Like I said it's hard enough to juststify building them even with zocks changes. We've already explained how +200 hp won't fix the issue, so I doubt adding less will either. Sock the right of it in one of his previous posts

I love how all of a sudden a tiny-winy nerf bringing the Wagner back in line with the Riptide makes a previously overused, overpowered for cost unit totally useless, and a buff to the Rhino while cutting away at the other unit holding it back means neither will get built. Hilarious.

Massive, sweeping changes do not a balanced game make, they just cause things to see-saw back and forth wildly over the years, EXACTLY like what we have seen in this game from gung-ho changes being applied. I guess I'll have to let the test results shut you all up eh?

Let me be VERY clear though. If, in my mod, the Rhino is still not good enough to be built, then neither is the Pillar, a unit we KNOW to be on the money. In that case, it is Pip's methodology which comes to the fore, and we must dial back the Aeon changes. They were weak before, now they are strong, and if they are SO strong now that the Battle Tanks are useless, the change MUST be dialed back.

I'd like to hear from Pip about his thoughts on how the Aeon changes might be toned down a little.

[pip]

I see nothing wrong with the t2 Aeon changes except the mobile shields. For me, they need to lose at least 800 hp if their energy upkeep is so drastically reduced. After that, maybe Aeon t2 will be strong, but I don't think it will be "too strong" to the point of being uncounterable. As for the aurora changes, I hate them not because of imbalance, but because of the unsettling look /behaviour of the unit (for me it's a terribly unelegant way to buff aurora, even though it's probably not imba).

As for the problem of Zock's rhino being superior to the pillar, it's a matter of adjusting the HP of the Rhino so that it's more balanced. If Zock's Rhino is too strong against pillar at 1850 HP, then we shall try 1750 HP and improve for instance a bit the turret turn rate (100 instead of 90), or even 1650 HP with turret turn rate of 110-120 so that microed rhino have the upper hand, but unmicroed rhino = roughly equal to pillars.

And then, as should be, the cybran players will have to use other t2 units to counter Ilshavoh and Obsidians, namely stealth + hoplites and /or the too often forgotten Firebeetle, which can kill 3 Ilshavoh easily if you micro them and combine them with Medusas.

[Nombringer]

[quote="ShadowKnight"

I love how all of a sudden a tiny-winy nerf bringing the Wagner back in line with the Riptide makes a previously overused, overpowered for cost unit
[/quote]

Okay im done.

[IceDreamer]

OK Pip, if I find UEF/Cybran unable to beat Obsidians + Blaze + Shields, I'll start by dialling the shield HP down a notch.

You're done, nom? You think 100 HP and a 10DPS shift are more than a tiny-winy nerf?

[Zock]

As for the problem of Zock's rhino being superior to the pillar, it's a matter of adjusting the HP of the Rhino so that it's more balanced. If Zock's Rhino is too strong against pillar at 1850 HP, then we shall try 1750 HP and improve for instance a bit the turret turn rate (100 instead of 90), or even 1650 HP with turret turn rate of 110-120 so that microed rhino have the upper hand, but unmicroed rhino = roughly equal to pillars.

And it will not only lose vs obsidian/chickenbots like now, it will get completly destroyed. And it will get destroyed by pillar in uneven terrain. I wouldn't make this unit at all.

One single sentence from crazed made me doubt the new rhino more then the 14 pages of this thread...

[Golol]

obsis are beaten by chickenbots without shields.
they have to beat chickenbots with shields. they have to. the mobile shield gen needs this buff. if they get nerfed, it should always stay gpor enough to beat chickenbots if used with obsis.
and rockrt bots can outkite shield gens and obsis as long as they want so aeon t2 wont get too strong.
and i agree with nom nerfing the wagner a bit.
and i think before there is anymore rhino discussion someone needs to say how the pillar will look like.
i'd give it 250 hp. or 200
the results should be that usally pillars beat rhinos, bt when rhinos are microed (dodging) they win.
for that pillar muzzle speed should be decreased a bit.
as a result, rhino spam ia bad

[IceDreamer]

THIS is why I keep harping on about "Little changes guys, Little changes..."

Pitting 3625 Pillar VS Rhino, 20 VS 20 in a straight no micro fight. For the extra speed, we want Rhinos to lose with 2 Pillar remaining, damaged.

Fight 1: 5 Pillar
Fight 2: 10 Pillar
Fight 3: 8 Pillar
Fight 4: 7 Pillar
Fight 5: 9 Pillar

I was wrong: The Rhino was definitely too weak. So, I load up the mod. The speed gets a 0.1 boost which has no impact in a static battle, the only change of any relevance being what all of you consider a worthless, tiny 50HP increase from 1150 to 1200. To my shock, these were the results:

Fight 1: 3 Rhino
Fight 2: 7 Pillar
Fight 3: 2 Rhino
Fight 4: 1 Rhino
Fight 5: 4 Rhino

Just 50 HP, and the entire battle shifts in favour of the Rhinos. It turns out that the break-even point is 1190HP on the Rhino.