QAI concerns.

[Mycen]

The UEF has the Mavor and Novax as game-ending tools.

Are you serious?

You can't be serious ...

What's so funny about that? How would you defend against a Mavor, massed Novax or Mavor/novax combo? Besides even if they're not as good as they could/should be right now, they can always be tweaked, but they'll still maintain their infinite range.

Megalith spam is a game ender. I've never seen anything stop 10 of them.

I'm not talking about 20x20s where you don't need "game enders" in the first place. On an 81x81, forget stopping them, in the 30-40 minutes it would take to get ten megaliths to your base you could build a whole new base somewhere else. That and nukes.

Normal experimentals cannot threaten the entire map, so they're really not game-enders in the real sense.

[FunkOff]

Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

[IceDreamer]

Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

Wrong.

First to other people...

The Mavor is incredibly easy to defend against, especially for its mass cost, even if you mix in half a dozen Novax. It does not threaten the whole map, because it threatens nothing. The UEF's Game Ender is currrently the Novax, which is dozens of times more powerful than its own mass in Mavors.

The Aeon have Salvation and the Paragon, though the Paragon ALSO doesn't affect the whole map (You need Engineers in place to build things in range) and the Salvation doesn't have infinite range. By the above logic, the Aeon do NOT have a Game Ender. In reality, both Salvation and Paragon do the job, proving Mycen's definition of 'Game Ender' incorrect.

The Seraphim have the only unit in the game fitting Mycen's description, the Yolona Oss.

The Cybran, for their part, have the Scathis (The strongest of the artillery units, and the cheapest Game Ender) which can be built within range easily enough(Far more so than any other faction thanks to extensive Stealth capabilities). They also have perhaps the MOST threatening unit in the game to the whole map, the MASER fitted to their ACU. You are NEVER safe from a Cybran TeleMASER attack.


Mavor needs a buff, Salvation needs a (Slight) nerf, Scathis may need a (Slight) Range buff, and none of these things are relevant at the moment because they aren't being addressed in this balance round.

[Mycen]

Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

Exactly. I feel like a true game-ending unit should allow a player to threaten and/or destroy his opponent's economy without having to move from a defensive position on any map. They are meant to be 'economic victories' so to speak. (As in, even without tactics and micro, once you build one, your victory is only a matter of time and making sure it doesn't get blown up.)

Wrong.

Well please, enlighten us then. What does define a "game-ender"?

The Mavor is incredibly easy to defend against, especially for its mass cost, even if you mix in half a dozen Novax. It does not threaten the whole map, because it threatens nothing. The UEF's Game Ender is currrently the Novax, which is dozens of times more powerful than its own mass in Mavors.

You're quite correct that the Novax is far more useful than the Mavor right now, that's (sadly) indisputable. But that's only a matter of balancing and tweaking. The issue there is merely returning the Mavor to its pre-FA potency (accuracy, anyone?), not the UEF's lack of map-dominating units.

The Aeon have Salvation and the Paragon, though the Paragon ALSO doesn't affect the whole map (You need Engineers in place to build things in range) and the Salvation doesn't have infinite range. By the above logic, the Aeon do NOT have a Game Ender. In reality, both Salvation and Paragon do the job, proving Mycen's definition of 'Game Ender' incorrect.

Not a bad point, but the Aeon have teleporting SCUs, which do threaten the entire map, and building a Paragon allows you to build and teleport as many of these as you like, anywhere you like. Remember, one of the concerns voiced when it was decided to nerf teleSCU was Aeon players teleporting into the middle of enemy bases and flash-building GCs. This is an actual possibility if you have a Paragon and a lot of room to work with.

You're absolutely right that, by my definition, the Aeon do not technically have a game-ender, but considering what you can do with a Paragon? I think it's close enough.

The Seraphim have the only unit in the game fitting Mycen's description, the Yolona Oss.

That they do.

The Cybran, for their part, have the Scathis (The strongest of the artillery units, and the cheapest Game Ender) which can be built within range easily enough(Far more so than any other faction thanks to extensive Stealth capabilities).

Now that it has had its range reverted to pre-FA levels, it only has game-ender potential if you're playing on a 20x20 or smaller. Have you ever tried to threaten someone's base with a Scathis on Betrayal Ocean? Good luck with that.

They also have perhaps the MOST threatening unit in the game to the whole map, the MASER fitted to their ACU. You are NEVER safe from a Cybran TeleMASER attack.

O RLY? How about I just move my commander underwater? Not to mention you LOSE if you mess up in the slightest. Seriously...

none of these things are relevant at the moment because they aren't being addressed in this balance round.

I was under the impression that they were 'relevant' because they were addressing QAI's concerns. Which is the title of the thread. I wasn't saying anything about changes to the aforementioned units, after all, I was merely pointing out their capabilities compared to what they Cybrans have available, and why that alone is a good enough reason to give stealth to Cybran Strategic Missile submarines. I guess I was mistaken, my apologies.

[Ato0theJ]

Cybran telemazor is an amazing tool, but far from unstoppable, a t3 nano phim com, t3 double shield aeon or uef com among with a large number of t1 PD or a horde of percies/snipers would easily stand up against telecom. A t3 cybran com can laugh off an attack if he has some defenses and the laser himself. Far from being of game ender status IMO.