Balance Test Mod.

Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 23 Mar 2013, 21:50

Release Candidate 1 of the 3622 patch :

- Hopefully final game colors.
- Increased turret yaw pitch of the mantis so it can hit while moving.
- Fixed multiple AI problems in the lobby (TML randomness cut off, options not visible to players).
- Removed the avatar panel when viewing a replay.
- Added a popup when the stats are not available at the end of a game. (ie. you die first, quit before the end of the game and observers are off).
- Fixed :Individual trees give more mass than group of the same tree. (Arkansas)

The patch will goes live tomorrow evening unless someone has a big concern about something.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 23 Mar 2013, 22:25

As I reported above, it appears that the new SAM get veterancy super fast due to their AOE. Currently, one level is only 2 ASF and since they kill them 2 or three at a time, it's too fast. Their veterancy level requirement should be doubled to 24/48/72/96/120 (same as Ravager).

I'm also adding a better fix to Cybran frigate and Aircraft Carrier AA projectile (it's the same projectile for both units, the previous one appears to be not enough). Turnrate of the projectile increased to 25 (instead of 12). Accuracy should be 85% with this change rather than 50-75%, depending on planes.
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final tuning of already existing changes
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 24 Mar 2013, 00:09

Here are the bp for making all land Experimental target experimentals and SACU in priority; all primary anti air units and structures target Experimentals in priority. Many files were changed, i hope i didn't forget any and didn't make mistakes, like forgetting a coma or space.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Wakke » 24 Mar 2013, 01:40

pip wrote:Here are the bp for making all land Experimental target experimentals and SACU in priority; all primary anti air units and structures target Experimentals in priority. Many files were changed, i hope i didn't forget any and didn't make mistakes, like forgetting a coma or space.


Is it really a good thing to increase T4 priority? I mean, currently if you want to attack an experimental, you just click it, pretty easy. When they receive highest priority though, it will be relatively harder *not* to attack them and attack the army instead, as that requires not attacking one, but multiple targets. Hope I made myself clear.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby ICKEN » 24 Mar 2013, 01:50

i have tested t3 air. it felt better as it is now. its still not realy viable in 1v1 games compared to land spam

sams are good now. restorers maybe need a new fix, but they fit their role as a anti air ship now. compared to other t3 gunships they suck vs land and they are countered by flaks. it just needs more testing.

i still belive that air leaves too much wreck mass.


also the t3 arty is better now. its something to think building it

i havent tested the new ac aa but cybran have no chance against air on navy. it will at least improve the current situation but i prefer the idea of lappen. giving the ac´s roles that fit their factions....

i like the new colors but it could get a problem for some players who cant see the difference between some colors even at the old ones. some others are just ugly :D like that diry yellow or white :)

one thing i have noticed was that it did not show scores in the balance testing mod. please do not implement that into the normal game, some players want scores. it also did not display the amout of my current units. it always showed 0/1000



another thing for the next balance patch is aeon navy. i find it quite interesting that ppl talk so barley about it. yes, i know they have plenty of hovering units... but in my eyes its the biggest balance issue in supcom atm. e.g the aeon destoryers have no chance at all against microed navy. their t1 aa ships dont feel strong enough. cybran cruisers are good at shooting, uef and sera have tml but the aeon cruiser has nothing. its cannon is just shit. the battleship has a low range because of tempest but tempest is not good at all against battleships or subs due its price. the only aeon navy unit that is better than something from the other factions is the rocketship.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 24 Mar 2013, 02:01

I would need logs. You are supposed to get scores.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby jabwd » 24 Mar 2013, 04:13

I have been running some 'tests' ( Cheating on, 150 ASFs, fly by's with 10 SAM turrets and several different types of 'clouds' of ASFs ) and find the new SAM turrets to be overpowered.

In the current state you will take out about 3-4 fighters in 1 fly by, while with the new balance testing mod 50 will die ( or more, depending on the group density ). This makes the sam turrets a ridiculous tool for turteling. I however do agree that currently SAM turrets are not strong enough to punish flying over someone's protected base. Wouldn't another idea by some kind of constant fire mode from SAM turrets which would allow them to kill ASFs in a fast manner but not punish too much with splash.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 24 Mar 2013, 08:37

jabwd wrote:I have been running some 'tests' ( Cheating on, 150 ASFs, fly by's with 10 SAM turrets and several different types of 'clouds' of ASFs ) and find the new SAM turrets to be overpowered.

In the current state you will take out about 3-4 fighters in 1 fly by, while with the new balance testing mod 50 will die ( or more, depending on the group density ). This makes the sam turrets a ridiculous tool for turteling. I however do agree that currently SAM turrets are not strong enough to punish flying over someone's protected base. Wouldn't another idea by some kind of constant fire mode from SAM turrets which would allow them to kill ASFs in a fast manner but not punish too much with splash.


So you think spamming 150 units of the same kind is smarter than turtling? ASF = air supremacy, it should not be air impunity, especially over your opponent's base. When did you see a land army with 150 t3 Bots? And did you see what happen when you build 150 t2 gunships and fly them over 10 flaks? IF ASF are spread out, and less numerous, casualties are much more reasonable and close to what they were before.

The new change is specifically done to prevent players to spam ASF too much : you just checked it works as intended. SAMs are better against swarms now, but they are weaker than before against single targets, because they are more vulnerable to land attacks, naval attacks and gunship attacks and also air experimental attacks (they still do same DPS against air experimentals, but have much less hp). Yes, you need to think about air strategies now, it's not just : SPAM more ASF and t3 bombers = I win combo. Drops of units before the SAM range, t3 gunships, air experimentals are more viable now.

@Icken. ASF wrecks value is now around 142 mass (instead of 360). So it's a lot better than before, it's not that risky to lose 20 ASF over the enemy base (you have to be smart and not give him 150 ASF wrecks). As for Aeon navy, you should have suggested something one month ago, and tested it in the last 3 weeks.

@Wakke : if you believe that t1 units, t2 units or t3 units are a bigger threat to experimental units than other experimental units in firing range, it means you don't reach much the t4 stage of the game. When you retreat your fatboy because a Monkeylord is coming, and the Fatboy shoots engineers reclaiming wrecks instead, or mantis, rather than the Monkeylord, it's a pity.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby Sunny » 24 Mar 2013, 11:28

The things, guys did to SAMs are good things. I would suggest rather to go with range(encourages to build T2 AAs, solves 10-20 T3 bombers (20k-40k mass) gameender problem too(lol, this looks like LISP)), not splash, but splash will do vs ASFs too.
Now a player can at least restrict free flying over bases (2-3 ASFs is nothing at late stages). 10 T3 SAMs is a huge amount, as they are not going to go somewhere and kill something for you. But now it just brings more diversity to endgame at least in turtle duels.
The gameplay will still revolve around T3 air on land maps (note the word "land", I know some will not). This is because we still don't have a reliable land movinig AA at T3 stage.

I also didn't quite get how restorers and Aeon T2 ASFs got nerfed. We all know, how gamebreaking missing this will hurt the game.
Also I noted, that some of the very best players, icluding Voodoo, already had switched to Aeon, it looks like a stake for me.
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Re: Balance Test Mod.

Postby pip » 24 Mar 2013, 11:49

Sunny wrote:
I also didn't quite get how restorers and Aeon T2 ASFs got nerfed. We all know, how gamebreaking missing this will hurt the game.



Swiftwinds and Restorers have not been touched. If anything, they are indirectly buffed by nerfed ASF, but ASF are still better at air to air combat, mass for mass, quite siginificantlu, so the buff is not that big. Nerf to ASF is also an indirect buff to the Czar.

As for strength of faction, Aeon is moderately buffed in 3622, but in important areas (t1 bombers and auroras). I don't know about the improvement of the chrono dampener upgrade. It may end up being a super handy tool, who knows? I suspect it can be an excellent counter to t3 units like percies and Bricks (for the price of a brick, you can use the upgrade to counter a lot of Bricks because stunning them give you time to OC and to your harbinger to close up the distance of their limited range)

However Cybran will recieve a lot of small buffs here and there for t1 and t2 (slightly better ACU regen, improved mantis accuracy, functional firebeetles, slightly more resistant hoplites, better AA capabilities for frigates, Destroyer and Carrier), and some nerf to t4 (Soul Ripper and Scathis). So I believe top players will also play them in 1v1, they should be more competitive than before (hopefully not too much).

UEF recieved small buffs (worthy Billy, Titan small buff and Fatboy targetting priority, which will be able to kite other experimental much more efficiently). It's sad that players still don't use Sparkies, which were buffed last time and are super useful units.

Seraphim buffs are few. The T2 bomber will drop more reliably, and Sera will end up with the best SAM of all (their super fast projectile was there before, but with AOE buff, it'll be really strong against blob of t3 bombers, because the projectile can reach them sooner, and sometimes before they can drop). Nerf to ASF is also an indirect buff to their t4 bomber.

All in all, I think all factions will be overally more balanced, with still the usual advantages on some maps.
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